While alive the Buddha and arahats had ceased all the links of the paticcasamupada?

[zerotime]

@RobertK

Yes that is true zerotime. Discussion on difficult points is vital…

I agree. I believe necessary clarifying this point and still more in the present times. Because at least I understand that there are efforts, unconscious or not, to distort and change the reach of the Buddha teaching. And is good knowing what the tradition and the historical orthodox position says in this regard.

@RobertK

It is excellent you agree with these important points from the Visuddhimagga!

yes, of course

@RobertK

you seem to be placing much weight on the non-clinging of the arahat and suggesting that that means no dukkha.

Why not consider also suttas like this where clinging is not mentioned:
SuttaCentral

At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, form is suffering. What is suffering is nonself. What is nonself should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

this Sutta show the Buddha training bhkkhus who still are not arhants.
It doesn’t show the Buddha still is experiencing dukkha.

According the Suttas, the Buddha said that he eradicated dukkha completely.
Is there some place inside the sources in where the Buddha rectified that claim to say that still he had some dukkha to be eradicated at death?

@RobertK

Thus the kiriiya cittas of the arahats are conditioned, sankhara.
I think you know the saying:
All conditioned phenomena are dukkha.

yes, the kiriiya cittas arise from causes but this is the end of the causality.
Kiriya cittas themselves are not causal because are not producing effects

When the votthapana-citta determines the object there is no kusala or akusala. Instead the common javana, only one citta eventually could arise later:

“For the arahat there is also an ahetuka kiriyacitta performing the function of javana, which may arise when he smiles : the hasituppada-citta”
-THE FUNCTION OF JAVANA

How dukka could arise in the Buddha and arhants due to the rupa process involved in the bodily pain?

[RobertK]

@zerotime

Is there some place inside the sources in where the Buddha rectified that claim to say that still he had some dukkha to be eradicated at death?

Yes there is a differentiation:

P258 Bodhi Comprehensive manula of Abhidhamma
the element of Nibbána as experienced by Arahants is called “with the residue remaining” (sa- upádisesa) because, though the defilements have all been extinguished, the “residue” of aggregates acquired by past clinging remains through the duration of the Arahant’s life. The element of Nibbána attained with the Arahant’s demise is called that “without the residue remaining” (anupádisesa), because the five aggregates are discarded and are never
acquired again. The two elements of Nibbána are also called, in the Commentaries, the extinguishment of the defilements (kilesa- parinibbána) and the extinguishment of the aggregates (khandha- parinibbána).

Trying a different tack.
Is there any consciousness of any type after the demise of the arahat? Is there any mentality? Is there something other thanthe eye and forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and mental phenomena?

After an arahat passes away is there some sort of existence- as believed by some monks in Thailand? "a number of Buddhas together with their arahant disciples” had paid a visit to the Acharn to “offer their congratulations upon his achievement”

@zerotime

yes, the kiriiya cittas arise from causes but this is the end of the causality.
Kiriya cittas themselves are not causal because are not producing effects

Right, that is why there is final khandha parinibbana- there is cuti citta but no patisandhi citta.

It is good to look at life through the lens of paramattha dhammas. There is a natural tendency to misunderstand what are human beings, including arahats . In fact as the quote from the Vism a few psost back shows, there are only mentality and materiality arising and ceasing.

Thus dukkha is not happening to the arahat - but rather dukkha is the nature of dhammas, it is intrinsic to all conditioned pheneomena. When an arahat walks, for example, what there is actually the mere arising and passing of elements - just like with a normal person.
“Normal person” and “arahat” are mere designations.

P80 volume 2 the Dispeller of Delusion

1744. Herein, what single person moves forward ? Or to what single person does the moving forward belong ? For in the highest sense there is only a going of elements, a standing of elements, a sitting of elements, a lying down of elements. For in each portion, together with the materiality,
      “Tis another consciousness that rises,
      another consciousness that ceases;
      Like to a river’s [flowing] stream
      that occurs in unbroken succession”
      (DA i 193; MA i 261; SA iii 190).
      Thus this “clear comprehension through non-delusion” is the not being deluded about moving forward and so on.

The difference of course is that for the arahat there are kiriya cittas, not the akusala or kusala of the non-arahat. However the cakkhu-vinanna (seeing consciousness ) and so on, arahat or not, are of the same type.

[zerotime]

@RobertK

@zerotime

Is there some place inside the sources in where the Buddha rectified that claim to say that still he had some dukkha to be eradicated at death?

Yes there is a differentiation:

P258 Bodhi Comprehensive manula of Abhidhamma
the element of Nibbána as experienced by Arahants is called “with the residue remaining” (sa- upádisesa) because, though the defilements have all been extinguished, the “residue” of aggregates acquired by past clinging remains through the duration of the Arahant’s life. The element of Nibbána attained with the Arahant’s demise is called that “without the residue remaining” (anupádisesa), because the five aggregates are discarded and are never
acquired again. The two elements of Nibbána are also called, in the Commentaries, the extinguishment of the defilements (kilesa- parinibbána) and the extinguishment of the aggregates (khandha- parinibbána).

yes, I understand that. Although regarding my concrete question:

Is this difference what would cause a dukkha still to be eradicated by the arhant at death?
Should the arhant still suffer in whatever degree, until the death arrives?

I understand all dukkha was eradicated as the Buddha taught. Because the clinging to the aggregates was destroyed and therefore there is no real sense to talk about “dukkha arising because the body”

This Theragatha verse and the Dhammapala Commentary is clarifying, I believe:

*"And one day the General of the Path(Dhamma) went on his round of inquiry, asking after this and that sick bhikkhu. Seeing Samitigutta, he gave him an exercise on the meditation of feeling, saying “My friend, in so far as there is what we call process of the five aggregates, the whole of suffering is a matter of feeling. But if just the aggregates be absent, suffering is absent.” *

• Theragatha v81.

Commentary (Atthakatha) By Acariya Dhammapala

*Even if there is no evil deed like that done by me in this existence (attabhāva), now, however, there is no production (sambhava) of that. There exists, however, whatever has been done in other rebirths, than this. Idh’eva taṃ vedanīyaṃ means: that, indeed, is the retribution which should be felt and experienced but here in this existence (attabhāva) even; why? Vatthu aññaṃ na vijjati means there exists no other continuous (pabandho) sensory aggregate (khandha) which is the ripening (vipaccana) occasion (okāsa) for that deed (kamma). *

These sensorial aggregated (khandha), however, because of the state of having forsaken (pahīnatta) the attachments (upādāna) in all respects (sabbaso), similar to forest fire (jātaveda) which is free from attachment (anupādāna), owing to the cessation of last conscious state (carimakacittanirodha), become dissolved (nirujjhanti) and incapable of reunion (appaṭisandhika); thus he exposed his Arahantship (aññā)."

[RobertK]

@zerotime

And one day the General of the Path(Dhamma) went on his round of inquiry, asking after this and that sick bhikkhu. Seeing Samitigutta, he gave him an exercise on the meditation of feeling, saying “My friend, in so far as there is what we call process of the five aggregates, the whole of suffering is a matter of feeling. But if just the aggregates be absent, suffering is absent

It is saying what i and others have been have been saying. The five aggregates are dukkha - and upon the final death of the arahat they n no longer arise - only the physical remains are left.
Until then, even after Samigutta attained arahatship there remains the khandhas conditioned by past deeds.

Or do you think that for the living arahat there are no khandhas?

Here is the passage again:
https://suttacentral.net/thag1.81/en/sujato?lang=en&layout=plain&reference=none&notes=sidenotes&highlight=false&script=latin

• Verses of the Senior Monks 1.81
• The Book of the Ones
• Chapter Nine

Samitigutta

Any bad things I’ve done in previous lives,are to be experienced right here,not in any other place.
“Yaṁ mayā pakataṁ pāpaṁ,
pubbe aññāsu jātisu;
Idheva taṁ vedanīyaṁ,
vatthu aññaṁ na vijjatī”ti.

… Samitigutto thero …

it is like with Angulimala
he was an arahat but still experienced the painful result of past deeds.
MN86

Then Aṅgulimāla—with cracked head, bleeding, his bowl broken, and his outer robe torn—went to the Buddha.

The Buddha saw him coming off in the distance,
and said to him,
“Endure it, brahmin! Endure it, brahmin!
You’re experiencing in this life the result of deeds that might have caused you to be tormented in hell for many years, many hundreds or thousands of years.”

[RobertK]

Dear zerotime
did you see this question…

@RobertK

Is there any consciousness of any type after the demise of the arahat? Is there any mentality? Is there something other thanthe eye and forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and mental phenomena?

After an arahat passes away is there some sort of existence- as believed by some monks in Thailand?

[zerotime]

@RobertK

It is saying what i and others have been have been saying. The five aggregates are dukkha - and upon the final death of the arahat they n no longer arise - only the physical remains are left.
Until then, even after Samigutta attained arahatship there remains the khandhas conditioned by past deeds.

Do you mean the eradication of dukkha by the Buddha and arhants was partial or complete?

It was Partial or Complete?.

Please, to clarify the issue answer in clear terms: (partial or complete)

[zerotime]

@RobertK

Dear zerotime
did you see this question…

@RobertK

Is there any consciousness of any type after the demise of the arahat? Is there any mentality? Is there something other thanthe eye and forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and mental phenomena?

After an arahat passes away is there some sort of existence- as believed by some monks in Thailand?

yes, although I didn’t know what to answer because I don’t know where it could be the relation with the issue of dukkha in arhants… Where do you see that relation?

thanks

[RobertK]

@zerotime

@RobertK

@RobertK

Is there any consciousness of any type after the demise of the arahat? Is there any mentality? Is there something other thanthe eye and forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and mental phenomena?

After an arahat passes away is there some sort of existence- as believed by some monks in Thailand?

yes, although I didn’t know what to answer because I don’t know where it could be the relation with the issue of dukkha in arhants… Where do you see that relation?

thanks

Well because you dont seem to accept that all khandhas are by definition dukkha. Is that because you think the arahat after death exists somehow, but in some non-dukkha state?

[zerotime]

@RobertK

Well because you dont seem to accept that all khandhas are by definition dukkha. Is that because you think the arahat after death exists somehow, but in some non-dukkha state?

Of course I agree the khandas are dukkha. It was never the point.
The point is in the wrong belief about the Buddha did no eradicated dukkha completely as He clearly said.

It seems that some people don’t accept the teaching of the eradication of dukkha in the same very life, as it was taught by the Buddha:

"Kamma formations, monks, also have a supporting condition, I say, they do not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for kamma formations? ‘Ignorance’ should be the reply.

“Thus, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition … […]and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction of the cankers.”
SN 12.23
Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

instead, it seems that some people believes the kamma formations can exist by its own side, with independence of the clinging to -self and the arising of a human being because these kamma formations.

They believe that even when the necessary support for dukkha is destroyed, dukkha would exist anyway.

What do you think about this? What is your explanation about the Buddha eradication of dukkha?

[RobertK]

@zerotime

Of course I agree the khandas are dukkha. It was never the point

Dear Zerotime
I cited Bhikkhu Bodhi:

@RobertK

P258 Bodhi Comprehensive manula of Abhidhamma
the element of Nibbána as experienced by Arahants is called “with the residue remaining” (sa- upádisesa) because, though the defilements have all been extinguished, the “residue” of aggregates acquired by past clinging remains through the duration of the Arahant’s life

Note that the residue of aggregates (khandhas) remain.
And these aggregates, the vinnana khandha, vedana khandha and other khandhas have the characteristic of anatta right?
They are anicca right?
And they are dukkha.

[RobertK]

@Zans gave a list of useful quotes here.

(https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=598304&hilit=word+Nevidha#p598304)

“The explanation of the word Nevidha given by the
Commentators is that an Arahanta who has reached the stage of
Arahatta-Phala. having no attachment to all rūpa-nama will not
be deemed to be abiding in this mundane world. After passing into
Parinibbāna - the last demise, as no new or fresh rūpa-nāma will
arise, he will have no future life existence and no other world for
him, the germ of existence having been perished with his death
(cuti). There is no more rebirths. Not having two worlds, nay, the
total extinction of the occurrence of fresh rūpa-nāma for being able
to get rid of all human passions, is what it called
“Anupādisesanibbāna.” In other words, it is the complete
‘extinction’ of all kilesas - mental defilements and the liberation
from existence.”

“All presently existing conditioned phenomena come to an end due to the destruction of death consciousness at the time of parinibbana, and because there is no volitional mind that can produce results, new phenomena do not arise but cease to exist. Thus, with the cessation of these two kinds of consciousness, all conditioned phenomena cease. This is like the cessation of the emission of light from an oil lamp whose oil and wick have been completely consumed.”

-Mahasi Sayadaw, Manual of Insight

When the teachings explicitly say cessation, it will be improper to go beyond it and formulate an idea of a special kind of existence. Extinction points to nothing other than Nothingness.

-Mahasi Sayadaw, On the Nature of Nibbana

It is only with death-consciousness of
the Arahat that the proximity condition no longer functions ; for
since no new mental group will ever arise again, there is no more
rebirth in any plane of existence, i.e. materiality and mentality will
never manifest themselves again.

• the Dhatukatha Translation PTS as book of Elements, preface by Thein Nyun, xvii

There are only 89 or 121 possible consciousnesses that exist according to the Abhidhamma. None of which are permanent, and none of which are outside the five aggregates.

-Abhidhammattha Sangaha chapters I-V

For him who has attained the stage of the arahat, there will be cuti-citta, but it will not be succeeded by patisandhi-citta.
Nina Van Gorkom

after the last consciousness of the Arahant, who has
abandoned arousing [future aggregates] and so prevented kamma from giving
result in a future [existence], there is no further arising of aggregates of existence,
and those already arisen have disappeared.

-Visuddhimagga ch XVI paragraph 73

Nibbāna Offers No Sense-objects
In the absence of mind, matter, consciousness, concomitants, etc., There can be no sense-objects, and in the absence of sense-objects no opportunities arise for mental formations to play their part. Nibbāna means the end of suffering. Since there are no primary elements and no mind and matter, everything ceases, and this cessation means eternal peace. All sufferings end.
-Venerable Mahasi Sayadaw, On the Nature of Nibbana

Absence of Mind and Matter in Nibbāna
In nibbāna there are no such things as mind or mental concomitants, which can be met with in the sense-sphere or form-sphere. It naturally follows that mind and matter that belong to the thirty-one planes of existence are totally absent in nibbāna. However, some would like to propose that after the parinibbāna of the Buddha and the Arahants, they acquire a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna. Such an extraordinary way of thinking may appeal to those who cannot do away with self or ego.

With regard to this proposition a learned Sayādaw reasoned that if there is a special kind of mind and matter in nibbāna, there must also be a special kind of rebirth which gives rise to a special kind of old age, disease, and death, which in turn bring about a special kind of sorrow, lamentation, suffering, distress, and despair. When the teachings explicitly say cessation, it will be improper to go beyond it and formulate an idea of a special kind of existence. Extinction points to nothing other than Nothingness. Nibbāna, which is not involved in mind and matter, cannot be made to get involved either in this world or in other worlds.

[Brunobm]

In arahants, there is no longer consciousness generated by kammic activity (saṅkhāra → viññāṇa, or rebirth-linking consciousness). However, there still exist consciousnesses produced by Name-Form (both links mutually support each other), as well as consciousnesses produced by contact (contact simultaneously produces feelings, perceptions, and consciousnesses). This generation of new consciousnesses continues as long as the arahant remains alive.

However, since the presence of consciousnesses no longer gives rise to craving or clinging, there are no longer sufficient conditions for the occurrence of new becomings and rebirths after death.