# What to call those who do not like Classical Theravāda **URL:** \ **Category:** General Theravada topics\ **Created:** [September 18, 2022, 3:02am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441 "2022-09-18T03:02:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/bksubhuti/32/19_2.png) [@bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/bksubhuti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2022, 3:02am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/1 "2022-09-18T03:02:21Z")
> These days… we lump all of those who do not like Classical Theravada into various categories. It is all the same, yet it gets very complicated who is who… > > - EBT > - Dwipitakans > - Nyanavirans > - Commy Haters > - Abhidhamma Haters > - 4 Nikayans > The list goes on and on. > > If we call them EBT, some may like only Buddhavajana… > If we call them Nyanavirans, then they might not like him, but follow similar things. > If we call EBT, but then find some who follow some commentary. > We call someone an Abhidhamma hater, and he might like 2 lines of Abhidhamma. > If we call them a commy hater he might claim he likes much of the commentaries… even Ajahn Sujato says he likes 80% of the commentaries. > The conflicts with putting categories on such people / monks goes on and on. > [Suicide: Sutta versus Commentary - #35 by bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/suicide-sutta-versus-commentary/322/35) With my own quoting myself above from the suicide post…I’m wondering what we should call these people as a group? I thought of two names. - Partial Theravadans - Tearavadans Due to my literary artistic nature (Puns) I’m leaning to the 2nd word because it implies breaking up something, removal and literally tearing pages out (Aj Kukrit). However I think those members of the groups mentioned above would prefer the first name. With that said, “Partial Theravadans” seems to be politically correct and lumps all the groups into one. It is purposely misspelled without the diacritical marks too. There is also a chance “Partial Tearavadans” can stick as well. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Trobinson465](https://classicaltheravada.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/t/e47c2d/32.png) [@Trobinson465](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/Trobinson465)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2022, 4:24am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/2 "2022-09-18T04:24:58Z")
Yes Dipitakans only reject abhidhamma pitaka, EBT rejects the abhidhamma, large chunks of the suttas and all commentaries, secular buddhists reject everything that doesnt fit thier athiestic world view etc. Partial theravadins i guess makes the most sense if u wanted to lump them together, that or just call them non-classical theravadins but that’s less entertaining? Or maybe some kind of pun like Modernvadins or Awusovadins, so its “way of the modern” or “way of the younger (?)” rather than “way of the Elders” (Theravada) ---
**Author:** ![bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/bksubhuti/32/19_2.png) [@bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/bksubhuti)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2022, 5:49am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/3 "2022-09-18T05:49:13Z")
> [@Trobinson465](#): > > but that’s less entertaining? 😀 ---
**Author:** ![DhammaWiki](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/dhammawiki/32/447_2.png) [@DhammaWiki](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/DhammaWiki)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2022, 3:52pm UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/4 "2022-09-18T15:52:42Z")
> [@bksubhuti](#): > > - Partial Theravadans > - Tearavadans Those sound pejorative, but that might be the intention. 😄 Here are some alternatives: 1. EBT 2. Suttavada 3. Modern Theravada Some others include Early Buddhism, Pre-sectarian Buddhism; but these would be controversial, because all schools of Buddhism claim a direct line back to the Buddha, including Classical Theravada, Zen, etc. As I’ve mentioned in my other posts here, I don’t completely fit with the modernists nor Classical. My preference is for EBT, but don’t reject Abhidhamma or Commentaries and my views align more with Classical on some of the major issues (rebirth, cosmology, kamma, DO, paramitas and others). ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://classicaltheravada.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/a/ac8455/32.png) [@asahi](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 3:53am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/5 "2022-10-29T03:53:26Z")
I think except secular buddhism , abhidhamma n commentary are in the Theravada . I am not sure what is Nyanaviran . Is Dhammavada (include three baskets) okay ? ---
**Author:** ![bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/bksubhuti/32/19_2.png) [@bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/bksubhuti)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2022, 5:39am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/6 "2022-10-29T05:39:19Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > . I am not sure what is Nyanaviran . The Late Venerable Nyanavira who killed himself, wrote a book that had a cult like following and exists today. “Nyanavirus” which infects newly made “Nyanavirans” was coined by a monk at Citthurst to describe the feverish anger that it causes to the new converts. They believe that all of Theravada is corrupt and the elders (from theravada) rewrote the dhamma through the commentaries and abhidhamma which were never spoken by the Buddha. Nevertheless, his book includes what I call a “tic-tac-toe” section that makes no sense and obviously was never in the “suttas”. In reality, ironically, but not surprisingly, he himself was rewriting the dhamma to suit his belief in his own enlightenment. He eventually killed himself believing in wrong interpretations that it was okay to do so. Because he was re-writing the dhamma himself, he thought others were doing the same. My friend once told me this: > “If you are a kleptomaniac, you will always believe others are trying to steal from you.” ---
**Author:** ![Ceisiwr](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/ceisiwr/32/1260_2.png) [@Ceisiwr](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/Ceisiwr)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2022, 9:48pm UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/7 "2022-10-31T21:48:35Z")
In that other great Abhidharma tradition, the Sarvāstivāda-Vaibhāṣika, there arose the Sautrāntika. The same thing is happening in Theravāda today. Monks of the same Vinaya lineage, but with different views of the Dhamma. Suttavādin might then be more apt. That said, the Sautrāntika of old didn’t fully reject the Abhidharma of their tradition. They merely rejected some of it or rejected certain interpretations of it. In comparison, many Suttavādins today tend to reject the whole of the Abhidhamma _in toto_ (usually without ever having read it, or the Visuddhimagga for that matter). ---
**Author:** ![bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/bksubhuti/32/19_2.png) [@bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/bksubhuti)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2022, 12:03am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/8 "2022-11-01T00:03:46Z")
Sadhu for your technical answer. However, I get confused about all of the traditions… Perhaps @Ceisiwr you can make a **new topic** with a matrix table explaining all of the differences including and related to Theravada. I think that will visually settle in better with me and others. Try to make like a software checklist chart when they try to sell you free standard and pro and they list all of the features. ---
**Author:** ![Sara\_patitthita](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/sara_patitthita/32/512_2.png) [@Sara\_patitthita](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/Sara_patitthita)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 7:55am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/10 "2022-12-15T07:55:22Z")
With all due respect, when reading this a Sutta in AN appeared in my mind makkhagaru hoti na saddhammagaru, AN ४.८४ ---
**Author:** ![RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/robertk/32/1498_2.png) [@RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/RobertK)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2022, 11:30am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/11 "2022-12-15T11:30:52Z")
Could you quote the sutta here. ---
**Author:** ![bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/bksubhuti/32/19_2.png) [@bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/bksubhuti)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 2:36am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/12 "2022-12-17T02:36:23Z")
> [@Sara\_patitthita](#): > > With all due respect, when reading this a Sutta in AN appeared in my mind It would be good if you quote and translate and also explain your reasons. ---
**Author:** ![LifelessAtta](https://classicaltheravada.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@LifelessAtta](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/LifelessAtta)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 8:24am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/13 "2023-09-04T08:24:06Z")
AN 4.84 : > “Catūhi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannāgato yathābhataṁ nikkhitto evaṁ niraye. > Katamehi catūhi? > Kodhagaru hoti na saddhammagaru, makkhagaru hoti na saddhammagaru, lābhagaru hoti na saddhammagaru, sakkāragaru hoti na saddhammagaru > > imehi kho, bhikkhave, catūhi dhammehi samannāgato yathābhataṁ nikkhitto evaṁ niraye. > > Catūhi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannāgato yathābhataṁ nikkhitto evaṁ sagge. > Katamehi catūhi? > Saddhammagaru hoti na kodhagaru, saddhammagaru hoti na makkhagaru, saddhammagaru hoti na lābhagaru, saddhammagaru hoti na sakkāragaru > > imehi kho, bhikkhave, catūhi dhammehi samannāgato yathābhataṁ nikkhitto evaṁ sagge”ti. > “Bhikkhus, one possessing four qualities is deposited in hell as if brought there. What four? One values anger, not the good Dhamma; one values denigration, not the good Dhamma; one values gain, not the good Dhamma; one values honor, not the good Dhamma. One possessing these four qualities is deposited in hell as if brought there. [85] > “Bhikkhus, one possessing four [other] qualities is deposited in heaven as if brought there. What four? One values the good Dhamma, not anger; one values the good Dhamma, not denigration; one values the good Dhamma, not gain; one values the good Dhamma, not honor. One possessing these four qualities is deposited in heaven as if brought there.” (Ven. Bodhi) ---
**Author:** ![bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/bksubhuti/32/19_2.png) [@bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/bksubhuti)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2023, 2:42pm UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/14 "2023-09-04T14:42:45Z")
It is quite interesting that CT can use the same suttas to describe nonCT when they use the same suttas to describe us. 😇 ---
**Author:** ![renaldo](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/renaldo/32/2033_2.png) [@renaldo](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/renaldo)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 4:58am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/15 "2023-11-12T04:58:15Z")
> [@bksubhuti](#): > > These days… we lump all of those who do not like Classical Theravada into various categories. It is all the same, yet it gets very complicated who is who… > > - EBT > - Dwipitakans > - Nyanavirans > - Commy Haters > - Abhidhamma Haters > - 4 Nikayans > The list goes on and on… I think the phrase “those who shorten the dispensation” works well in this situation. But for those who specifically deny the Omniscience of the Buddha, I feel the Latin ‘negator Omniscientiae’ has a nice ring to it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/bksubhuti/32/19_2.png) [@bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/bksubhuti)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 3:03am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/16 "2026-09-07T03:03:58Z")
I think those who follow EBT are “conspiracy theorists.” They believe in the conspiracy that the elders made up the Dhamma and ascribed it to the Buddha. It is a fitting name. ---
**Author:** ![renaldo](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/renaldo/32/2033_2.png) [@renaldo](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/renaldo)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2026, 5:29pm UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/17 "2026-09-07T17:29:35Z")
> [@bksubhuti](#): > > I think those who follow EBT are “conspiracy theorists.” They believe in the conspiracy that the elders made up the Dhamma and ascribed it to the Buddha. It is a fitting name That is certainly fitting, Bhante. 🙏 ---
**Author:** ![gregk](https://classicaltheravada.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/g/958977/32.png) [@gregk](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/gregk)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 3:03pm UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/18 "2026-09-08T15:03:17Z")
Such a waste of time. But the solution is this. Classical Theravada is a wrong description. You should use Orthodox Theravada and the others Unorthodox Theravada. **Orthodox means conforming to what is traditional, established, or generally accepted as right, while unorthodox means breaking with these conventional rules, customs, or beliefs** **Meaning of Orthodox** - **Definition:** Following established rules, traditional beliefs, or mainstream ways of thinking. - **Word Origin:** Comes from Greek words _orthos_ (“right” or “straight”) and _doxa_ (“opinion” or “glory”). Simple solution. Then you can also have Burmese orthodox, Thai orthodox and Sri Lankan Orthodox etc as suits the situation. Disagreements and unorthodoxy are in every field of knowledge so don’t expect anything to be different in Buddhism. It is a process of human nature. ---
**Author:** ![bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/bksubhuti/32/19_2.png) [@bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/bksubhuti)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2026, 3:08pm UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/19 "2026-09-08T15:08:18Z")
> [@gregk](#): > > Such a waste of time. But the solution is this. Classical Theravada is a wrong description. > > You should use Orthodox Theravada and the others Unorthodox Theravada. yes.. we didn’t realize that until after the website was created. We had discussed this in a different thread. That is why the name of the website changed. classical orthodox theravada. It would make sense that unorthodox would be a good name as well. But it doesn’t describe it so well. We have [orthodoxtheravada.org](http://orthodoxtheravada.org) ---
**Author:** ![Phaeton](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/phaeton/32/2039_2.png) [@Phaeton](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/Phaeton)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 8:08am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/20 "2026-09-09T08:08:00Z")
This whole idea of rejecting traditions, separating Sacred Scripture from Sacred Tradition, and pulling in controversial interpretations rings a bell, doesn’t it? 😁 I think a good name for it would be “Protestant Buddhism.” It isn’t Theravada because it isn’t orthodoxy, and because it criticizes tradition while placing personal opinion above the experience of the Theras and the “Fathers” of the early Sangha. ---
**Author:** ![bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/bksubhuti/32/19_2.png) [@bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/bksubhuti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2026, 9:14am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441/21 "2026-09-09T09:14:00Z")
There are some parallels that “are familiar” with Protestantism. It is not unheard of as a topic either in which people are proud of a “protest” - Protestant Buddhist label. I think Sangarakshita proposed protestant buddhism. If you dig deep into FWBO, it gets a little weird. There is one thing in common. Westerners changing stuff. > **[A Protestant Buddhism? - Barre Center for Buddhist Studies](https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article/a-protestant-buddhism/)** > > Full Moon May 17 2011 > **[The FWBO and ‘Protestant Buddhism’ by Sangharakshita](https://www.sangharakshita.org/individual-works/the-fwbo-and-protestant-buddhism)** [Next page](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/what-to-call-those-who-do-not-like-classical-theravada/441.md?page=2)