# Space, different kinds of. Where is it in Abhidhamma? **URL:** \ **Category:** Abhidhamma\ **Created:** [April 9, 2025, 6:01pm UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/space-different-kinds-of-where-is-it-in-abhidhamma/1778 "2025-04-09T18:01:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Citta](https://classicaltheravada.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/c/c37758/32.png) [@Citta](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/Citta)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2025, 6:01pm UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/space-different-kinds-of-where-is-it-in-abhidhamma/1778/1 "2025-04-09T18:01:15Z")
I can’t find the definition of other type of space. There is ākāsa-dhātu, but it is defined as space that separates kalapas, or as space between rupas. What about space that allows rūpa or the absence of rūpa to be there in the first place? It is not “base of infinite space”, or “base of nothingess” either but that which allows it to be there. Any comments? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/robertk/32/1498_2.png) [@RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/RobertK)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 2:16am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/space-different-kinds-of-where-is-it-in-abhidhamma/1778/2 "2025-04-10T02:16:08Z")
from Nyanatiloka > **[BUDDHIST DICTIONARY](https://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_a.htm)** > ākāsa: ‘space’, is, according to Com., of two kinds: 1. limited space (paricchinnākāsa or paricchedākāsa), 2. endless space (anantākāsa), i.e. cosmic space. > > 1. Limited space, under the name of ākāsa-dhātu (space element), belongs to derived corporeality (s. khandha, Summary I; Dhs 638) and to a sixfold classification of elements (s. dhātu; M 112, 115, 140). It is also an object of kasiṇa (q.v.) meditation. It is defined as follows: "The space element has the characteristic of delimiting matter. Its function is to indicate the boundaries of matter. It is manifested as the confines of matter; or its manifestation consists in being untouched (by the 4 great elements), and in holes and apertures. Its proximate cause is the matter delimited. It is on account of the space element that one can say of material things delimited that ‘this is above. below, around that’ " (Vis.M. XIV, 63). > > 2. Endless space is called in Aṭṭhasālinī, ajatākāsa, ‘unentangled’, i.e. unobstructed or empty space. It is the object of the first immaterial absorption (s. jhāna), the sphere of boundless space (ākāsānañcāyatana). According to Abhidhamma philosophy, endless space has no objective reality (being purely conceptual), which is indicated by the fact that it is not included in the triad of the wholesome (kusala-tika), which comprises the entire reality. Later Buddhist schools have regarded it as one of several unconditioned or uncreated states (asaṅkhatadhamma) - a view that is rejected in Kath. (s. Guide. p. 70). Theravāda Buddhism recognizes only Nibbāna as an unconditioned element (asaṅkhata-dhātu: s. Dhs. 1084). ---
**Author:** ![RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/robertk/32/1498_2.png) [@RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/RobertK)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 2:17am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/space-different-kinds-of-where-is-it-in-abhidhamma/1778/3 "2025-04-10T02:17:21Z")
Nina Van Gorkom explained some aspects of space: [space Nina](https://groups.io/g/dsg/message/28658) > Nina: Sometimes we have to go back to the beginning so that we, in the middle > of studying details, do not lose the big picture! > Rupa is among the three conditioned paramattha dhammas. This means: it > arises from the appropriate conditions and then it falls away. There are > several conditioning factors that come together so that a particular dhamma > arises. But since these conditions do not last and fall apart, also the > conditioned dhamma has to fall away again. Rupas are listed as 28 kinds. > That means, they are not concepts or productions of the mind.They are > included in rupakkhandha. Except the four rupas which are characteristics > inherent in rupa, they arise and fall away. Also space arises and falls away > together with the groups of rupa it surrounds. > > H: But it is not Nipphanna Rupa. It is > Anipphanna Rupa. > Nina: Yes. > H:That means space is not conditioned by Kamma, Citta, > Utu, and Ahara. > N: Let me repeat what I wrote before: > \< _Space is considered to originate from the four factors. Still, it is > called unproduced and asabhava: it merely functions as delimiting the groups > of rupa. Though not concrete matter (thus unproduced, anipphanna, only in > this sense), it has a characteristic and it is real. \> > Space is rupa paramattha, it is not nibbana paramattha, the unconditioned > element. > Now we have the word nipphanna, translated as produced. This creates > confusion. The dictionary (PED) says: from nippajjati or nipphajjati: > nipphanna: produced, accomplished, determined, conditioned. We should not > confuse this term with: originated from: samu.t.thaana: origination. Thus > now we have: space, is anipphanna rupa, not ‘determined’, meaning, not > concrete matter. > And it is conditioned, it originates from one of the four factors. It arises > and falls away together with the groups (kalapas) originating from these > factors. > This is all from the Visuddhimagga (XVIII, 13) and later on when we come to > it, I like to study quietly the Tiika which also explains about the term > nipphanna._ > H: If there is no Mahabhuta Rupa then there is no space. > But when there are Mahabhuta Rupa, there exists space. > Nina: Yes. Space is a derived rupa, and thus it is dependent on the four Great > Elements, these are its foundation. > H:Time and space > are not real existence. > Nina: The rupa space is real, it is rupa paramattha dhamma or rupa kkhandha as > you also agree. > Usually people think only of outer space, and then there is the danger that > they go way out. > Time is a concept, it is not rupa paramattha dhamma. But, it still indicates > relations as to the duration of rupa and the duration of nama. Ven. > Nyanaponika describes very carefully the many aspects of time in his Abh > Studies. I find this a good book, very thorough. > _Originating from_ is very intricate. Let me add a little from the Expositor > (Atthasalini, II, 342): > \< In the Table of Contects we have matter (1) born of kamma, (2) caused by > kamma, (3) originating in the caloric order [N: the element of heat], caused > by kamma, (4) originating in nutriment, (5) caused by nutriment, etc, etc. > This is just to show how many factors are involved, different conditions > operating at the same time. Where is a self or person who takes these all in > his hands? ---
**Author:** ![RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/robertk/32/1498_2.png) [@RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/RobertK)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 2:18am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/space-different-kinds-of-where-is-it-in-abhidhamma/1778/4 "2025-04-10T02:18:53Z")
More from Nina Van Gorkom: [nina 2](https://groups.io/g/dsg/message/28739) > Nina: I think that you and I are speaking about different kinds of space. You > look up at the sky, thinking of a concept. When thinking of the concept > space one may find that very important and great. It invites to clinging. I > speak about that very small, insignificant rupa that, together with the > other 27 rupas is classified in the Abhidhamma as rupakkhandha and performs > the function of delimiting the kalapas. It is not worth clinging to, it is > impermanent and non-self. > The Commentaries explain in conventional terms that the manifestation of > space are cavities in the body, such as ear cavity, but we should not be led > astray and we should take this in the right sense. Their intention was > explaining in understandable language what space is: a reality. > > Howard: Htoo, doesn’t this strike you as a bit ironic, with the space that is > experienced being “unreal,” but the allegedly “real” space being > unobservable? > Hardness that is real is actually observed! Sounds that are real are > actually > observed! But “real” space - that’s the sort of space we _cannot_ observe!! > (Something’s wrooong here! ) > > Nina: Yes, something is wrong here. > Today we go again to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta. > The Buddha taught Rahula about the four Great Elements of earth, water, fire > and wind, and also about space. > We read in the Co: > \ Blessed One speak about the meditation subject of materiality? > He spoke so that he (Rahula) would abandon his attachment to materiality. > It must have occurred to him thus: ³Since attachment has arisen in Rahula on > account of his body, and the meditation subject on materiality was explained > to him before in brief, I shall now also make him dissect the body in > fortytwo ways and thus cause him to get rid of attachment that is dependent > on it and to attain the truth of Dhamma.² > Why did he then explain in detail the element of space? > In order to point out the derived material phenomena. > Before he had spoken about the four great Elements, not about the derived > physical phenomena. > Therefore, in order to point these out in that way, he explained in detail > the element of space. > He also made known the matter that is delimitated by the internal space {N: > space performing its function of delimitating]. > ³He proceeds to clarify matter that is delimitated by space. > The Guide explained this so that it was clear to him in that way.² \> > After that he taught him to apply himself to the mental development similar > to earth, and similar to the other great Elements and space. We can admire > the structure of the sutta here: after the explanation about the Elements > the Buddha taught the application of this knowledge in daily life. The > Buddha said: > \<³Apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, Rahula, > For when you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the > earth, Rahula, agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen, > impinging on > the mind will not persist.²\> > He taught the same about mental development like water, fire, wind and > space. > > > \ > earth, Rahula, > > agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen, will not take a > > lasting hold on the mind.\>The same about the other Great Elements and space. > > Would the Buddha teach Rahula merely a concept of space? He taught > > realities, rupakkhandha and the other khandhas. We have to understand the > > deep meaning of his words. We read: \ > anywhere, > > likewise, Rahula, you should cultivate the mental development that is > > like space.\> > The goal is detachment. ---
**Author:** ![RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/robertk/32/1498_2.png) [@RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/RobertK)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 2:19am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/space-different-kinds-of-where-is-it-in-abhidhamma/1778/5 "2025-04-10T02:19:53Z")
nina van gorkom > Questioner: I was wondering in what sense space is impermanent, unsatisfactory, not > self. Is it so because space is actually ‘edge’, a characteristic of > matter? > Nina: Though it is not concrete matter and an asabhava rupa, it is bound up > with concrete matter since it delimits them. It delimits the groups > originated by kamma, citta, nutrition and temperature and therefore reckoned > as originated by these four factors. It arises and falls away with them. It > is also called an element, dhatu, space-element in the Expositor (II, 425). > And the Co to the Abh. Sangaha states:, meaning, it is not a living being. The Vis. gives the > characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, as it does in > the case of all 28 rupas. It is rupa, thus, it has the three > characteristics. And see below, the suttas. > L: There is a slight discrepancy between the PTS (?) translation from MN > 140 Nina gave and B. ~Nanamoli’s: > > PTS: “And what, monk, is the internal element of space? Whatever is > space, spacious, is internal, referable to an individual and derived > therefrom, such as the auditory and nasal orifices, the door of the > mouth…” > > ~N: “What is the internal space element? Whatever internally, belonging > to oneself, is space, spatial, and clung-to, that is, the holes of the > ears, the nostrils, the door of the mouth…” > > Larry: The first one has “derived therefrom” and the second one has > “clung-to”. > Nina: It is said: , or, clung to (upadi.n.na): > namely, produced by kamma, but in a wider sense referring to all rupas of > the body. These two, derived from an individual, or, clung to, amount to the > same. They are called internal and individual. > Nina: B.B. has: \ and clung to, that is, the holes of the ears, the nostrils…\> At the end of > this definition we read: \ proper wisdom thus: "This is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself.'\> > Would this be said of a concept? It is rupa, an element, not a concept. > Going to the Pali of Mahaaraahulovaadasutta: ajjhattika: internal, > paccatta.m, belonging to oneself, but used figuratively of course. See the > end: they should be realized as non-self. Thus, as rupa, having the three > characteristics. > “And what, Rahula, is the space element? The space element may be > internal or external. And what, Rahula, is the internal space > element? That, internally, and individually, is space, void, and > clung to, namely: the cavity of the ear, the orifice of the nose, the > opening of the mouth, and whereby (one) swallows what is tasted, > chewed, drunk and eaten, and where (food) being tasted, chewed, drunk > and eaten remains, and whereby (food) being tasted, chewed, drunk and > eaten passes out of the body lower down, or whatever else internally, > and individually is space, void, sky, empty, an opening, hollow, > untouched by flesh and blood, and clung to. This, Rahula, is > called the internal space element. But that very internal space > element and that external space element are simply space element. > Thus “this is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself” is to be > seen with right wisdom just as it is. Having seen this with right > wisdom just as it is, the mind becomes dispassionate towards (and) > detaches (itself) from the space element.” > Nina. ---
**Author:** ![RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/robertk/32/1498_2.png) [@RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/RobertK)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 2:20am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/space-different-kinds-of-where-is-it-in-abhidhamma/1778/6 "2025-04-10T02:20:28Z")
his is the Tika , subcommentary to the Visuddhimagga which Nina Van Gorkom translated: Tiika: Ruupaani paricchindati, saya.m vaa tehi paricchijjati, It delimits material phenomena or it is itself delimited by them, ruupaana.m vaa paricchedamatta.m ruupaparicchedo, or it is just the delimitation of material phenomena, the materiality that is delimitation, ta.m lakkha.na.m etissaati ruupaparicchedalakkha.naa. that is its characteristic, thus, that of delimiting matter. Aya.m hi aakaasadhaatu ta.m ta.m ruupakalaapa.m paricchindantii viya hoti. This is the element of space that is as it were delimiting each of the groups of material phenomena. Tenaaha ³ruupapariyantappakaasanarasaa²ti. Therefore he said, ³its function is to display the boundary of matter². Atthato pana yasmaa ruupaana.m paricchedamatta.m hutvaa gayhati, tasmaa vutta.m ³ruupamariyaadapaccupa.t.thaanaa²ti. With regard to its meaning, since it is apprehended as having been just the separation of material phenomena, he said that its manifestation is the confines of matter. Yasmi.m kalaape bhuutaana.m paricchedo, teheva asamphu.t.thabhaavapaccupa.t.thaanaa. In which group there is the delimitation of the great Elements, its manifestation is the state of being untouched by these. Vijjamaanepi hi kalaapantarabhuutaana.m kalaapantarabhuutehi samphu.t.thabhaave ta.mta.mbhuutavivittataa ruupapariyanto aakaasoti yesa.m so paricchedo, tehi so asamphu.t.thova. If contact occurs between one group of the great elements with another group, space is the separation of each of them by delimiting materiality and thus it is the delimitation of those elements by which it is itself also untouched. A~n~nathaa paricchinnataa na siyaa tesa.m bhuutaana.m byaapibhaavaapattito. Otherwise there would be no delimiting of these great elements, but there would be pervasion among them. Abyaapitaa hi asamphu.t.thataa. The state of not pervading is the state of being untouched. Tenaaha bhagavaa ³asamphu.t.tha.m catuuhi mahaabhuutehii²ti (dha. sa. 637, Therefore, the Blessed one said, ³untouched by the great Elements.² Ka.n.nacchiddamukhavivaraadivasena ca chiddavivarabhaavapaccupa.t.thaanaa vaa. And because of the cavity in the ear, or the door of the mouth, and so on, its manifestation is the state of cavities and apertures. Yesa.m ruupaana.m paricchedo, tattheva tesa.m paricchedabhaavena labbhatiiti vutta.m ³paricchinnaruupapada.t.thaanaa²ti. Of which material phenomena it is the delimitation, there it is applied, and thus he said, ³its proximate cause is matter delimited.² ³Yaaya paricchinnesuu²ti-aadinaa aakaasadhaatuyaa ta.mta.mkalaapaana.m kalaapantarehi asa"nkarakaara.nata.m dasseti. With the words, ³And it is on account of it that one can say of material things delimited (that this is above, below, around, that²)he taught with regard to the element of space that it is the cause for each of the groups that they are not blended with each other. English: It delimits material phenomena or it is itself delimited by them, or it is just the delimitation of material phenomena, the materiality that is delimitation, that is its characteristic, thus, that of delimiting matter. This is the element of space that is as it were delimiting each of the groups of material phenomena. Therefore he said, ³its function is to display the boundary of matter². With regard to its meaning, since it is apprehended as having been just the separation of material phenomena, he said that its manifestation is the confines of matter. In which group there is the delimitation of the great Elements, its manifestation is the state of being untouched by these. If contact occurs between one group of the great elements with another group, space is the separation of each of them by delimiting materiality and thus it is the delimitation of those elements by which it is itself also untouched. Otherwise there would be no delimiting of these great elements, but there would be pervasion among them. The state of not pervading is the state of being untouched. Therefore, the Blessed one said, ³untouched by the great Elements.² And because of the cavity in the ear, or the door of the mouth, and so on, its manifestation is the state of cavities and apertures. Of which material phenomena it is the delimitation, there it is applied, and thus he said, ³its proximate cause is matter delimited.² With the words, ³And it is on account of it that one can say of material things delimited (that this is above, below, around, that²), he taught with regard to the element of space that it is the cause for each of the groups that they are not blended with each other. ---
**Author:** ![RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/robertk/32/1498_2.png) [@RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/RobertK)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2025, 2:21am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/space-different-kinds-of-where-is-it-in-abhidhamma/1778/7 "2025-04-10T02:21:08Z")
[nina](https://groups.io/g/dsg/message/140653) from nina van gorkom > “The Path of Purification” (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV, 63. > > 1. > 1. The space element has the characteristic of delimiting matter. > Its function is to display the boundaries of matter. It is manifested as > the confines of matter; or it is manifested as untouchedness, as the > state of gaps and apertures (cf. Dhs. 638). Its proximate cause is the > matter delimited. And it is on account of it that one can say of > material things delimited that ‘this is above, below, around, that’. > > N: Several definitions of space: Vis XIV, 36, Tiika: > Dhammasangani, 638: > That which is space and belongs to space, is sky and belongs to sky, is vacuum and belongs to vacuum, and is not in contact with the four Great Phenomena. > The Expositor II (p. 425) > \<…space is that which is not ‘scratched’, not scratched off, which is not possible to scratch, cut, or break… ‘Sky’ [in Pali agha] is that which is not struck (a-gha.m); not strikable is the meaning. Aghagata”m is the same. ‘Vacuum’ (vivara, opening) is in the sense of a hole; also vivaragata.m. By ‘untouched by the four great essentials’ the unentangled space-element untouched by these is stated…\> (follows the definition). > N: There is unconditioned space and conditioned space. Here, in the context of ruupakkhandha only conditioned space is dealt with. Space that delimits the groups of ruupa (kalapas) is conditioned space and it is classified among the twentyeight kinds of ruupa. Without it the groups would not be distinct, they would permeate each other. Each of the groups of octads, nonads, decads etc. plays its own part, it is important that they are distinct. It performs its function, arising just for a moment and then gone. The decad of speech intimation (the inseparables, sound and speech intimation) arises at the appropriate time, and nobody can tell it to do so. Speech intimation has performed its function before we realize it. Space surrounds all these different groups. > > * * * > > Though it is not concrete matter and an asabhava rupa, it is bound up with concrete matter since it delimits them. It delimits the groups originated by kamma, citta, nutrition and temperature and therefore reckoned as originated by these four factors. It arises and falls away with them. It is also called an element, dhaatu, space-element in the Expositor (II, 425). And the Co to the Abh. Sangaha states:, meaning, it is not a living being. The Vis. gives the characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, as it does in the case of all 28 rupas. It is ruupa, thus, it has the three characteristics.