Scientific Evidence for the Non-Existence of an Almighty God

Theists could say the same thing about G-d (of many religions) that His beginning “is not discernible”. They could also say something similar about “omniscience” and our “choices”, that they are compatible in some way that “is not discernible” for us.

The Buddha, in later literature, was said to be omniscient. So all these issues (except perhaps omnipotence) would be applicable as well.

Lets say John is walking on a street and is about to slip and fall. Lets say you know that. Your knowledge of it is in no way causal for this to occur. Knowledge is one thing, someone’s action is another thing. A theist might argue something like that with G-d’s timeless knowledge of the future and your actual choice that you make. G-d’s timeless foreknowledge is of your free choice, not your choice directly dependant on G-d.

Another line of argument is that G-d does not “foresee” the future, because “before” and “after” do not apply to His timeless knowledge of all times simultaneously. Almost like Sarvastivadan belief that present, future and past “exist” like in an idea of “block universe” in modern science & philosophy. Thus his omniscient knowledge is known to him eternally. His knowledge doesn’t constrain your will because he is not causing it to happen, you are. He merely sees what you are doing.

Example: imagine you’re watching a security video of yesterday. You “know” what happened — say, the person on screen stole something — but your knowing it now didn’t make him do it. It is just that you’re seeing it from a different vantage point. Similar with G-d who is timeless and exists outside of time in which we live.

Freedom of choice requires that the choice came from your decision, effort, will, exertion, thinking that was the immediate cause of that choice. That is most important part that makes your will “free”. Your choice rather than someone else’s.

Quick sum up:

Knowledge doesn’t cause events.

Choices are known but not compelled.

No foreknowledge that determines future.

It depends which belief G-d we are talking about. I do not know/remember, at least at the time of writing this, any belief in G-d where one’s actions are determined solely by G-d. A person is still responsible for one’s choices. A person who deliberately kills is a murderer, who steal is the thief and so on. Not G-d who created the person.

I’m talking specifically about

belief in God as the primary cause of actions and results.

I don’t deny that some forms of belief in divinities can be beneficial to spiritual practice. In fact, devanusati, as taught by the Buddha, is an excellent example of a divinity-based practice.

My knowledge is not a proactive cause for the slip and fall, but at the moment I know that the person may slip and fall and I also have the power to prevent it, then my choice becomes one of the conditions that will determine whether the fall happens or not. If I choose not to intervene and let John slip and fall, then my choice becomes a permissive cause. In this specific situation, that makes me, in some way, responsible for what happens to John.

But to what extent can an individual be held responsible for another person’s actions?
In the case of human beings, there are limits — the limits of knowledge, of capacity to act, and of ethical constraints. In certain circumstances, one cannot predict the natural outcome of events; in others, one knows the likely outcome but cannot intervene; and in yet others, the possible interventions may be morally questionable — for example, lying, stealing, or killing to prevent harm.

But what about an omnipotent and omniscient deity?

A being capable of knowing all future consequences of present phenomena, and at the same time fully capable of altering those phenomena, becomes a necessary participant in everything that occurs or fails to occur — either as a direct agent or as a passive spectator.
The choices of other beings would then constitute one of the possible domains of action of such a deity. Under these circumstances, it would be impossible to speak of true free will, for the divine will would be the only one that ultimately matters in the arising of phenomena.

In this hypothetical situation, “If John wishes to walk in a certain direction, it is because God either allowed that volition to arise or actively caused it to arise.”

In summary:

  • A God who knows everything and can do everything cannot be a neutral observer.
  • Therefore, everything that happens results either from His direct will or from His conscious permission.
  • Consequently, the free will of creatures would be illusory.

As you said, later literature. The early texts portray the Buddha as a great being, but they also define some of his limits.

We’re getting off-topic here :sweat_smile:

Really!!! Which texts exactly and where?

And which pali word is translated as omniscience?

Mahayana texts, for example. They belong to a later period, and some of them portray the Buddha with cosmic powers far beyond what the early texts describe.

If there are Pali texts that speak of the Buddha’s omniscience on such an extraordinary scale, I can’t recall any at the moment.

Anyway, a strong theist would probably consider this kind of omniscience inferior when compared to the omniscience of God.

Try Sabbaññutā.

These threads discuss the omniscience of the Buddhas:

Also anāvaraṇañāṇa. It is not an easy prospect to say what the commentaries say about this. Commentaries often does not repeat things. The information is scattered throughout many commentaries. Quite an extraordinary breadth and depth of exposure is needed( which i ofcourse don’t have).

Keep that in mind when engaging in intellectual tourism.

Why can’t G-d not be a neutral observer? Some theists say that he created us and then stopped interfering because we need to develop ourselves rather than be mindless robots control by Him. That was the point, give us free will to develop ourselves rather than be puppets.

My arguments are only valid in the case of a totally omnipotent and omniscient God. Any limitation in God’s power or knowledge would leave some room for self-determined will.

Development merely means allowing phenomena to occur according to the states and laws of causality previously established. It would certainly be possible for a totally omnipotent and omniscient God to refrain from interfering with His creation at some point. But in that case, He would already know in advance the entire course of development of His creation, including all self-determined acts performed by His creatures. Such a pre-known sequence of events would still amount to determinism. So even if the creatures are “free” (because God does not interfere with their volitions), their future actions are already known by God beforehand.

A theology that postulates an omnipotent and omniscient God would lead to two possible conclusions, as ends of a spectrum: either divine causation when God acts, or fatalism when God merely observes. In both cases, if these views are followed to their logical conclusion, they result in a mindset unfavorable to spiritual growth.

Any form of theism that aims to support spiritual development (leading at least to wholesome states of mind, and ideally to rebirth in heavenly realms) must impose limitations on the powers of God—or the gods—especially regarding their influence over the volitions of living beings.

Since we aren’t omniscient ourselves, so how are we to judge what omniscience really means? Maybe the apparent paradoxes is fault of our limited understanding. Maybe omniscience doesn’t cover what someone else actually chooses.

I was thinking about many worlds interpretation of QM. Maybe if one knows the future, it still gives the other person the ability to choose only one out of many possibilities to act. Which one is actually chosen might not be known, even though ALL potential possibilities are known.

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So God left a huge loophole? Besides adding disease and death? I know I would engineer it much better if I were God. Still sounds like God is flawed as a creator. Theistic thinkers fail again.

I didn’t realize this thread was so large.
Below are some of my recurring questions and arguments:

The Six-Year-Old Girl

I have asked many knowledgeable Christians why a six-year-old girl can get leukemia or other painful terminal diseases by “God’s will,” but the answers were never sufficient for me. In truth, there was no real answer. Was it to teach the parents a lesson? That seems a bit disturbing, if you ask me.

Judgment & Fair Game

Another argument is that we spend a mere hundred years on Earth (if we live that long) and then are judged for how we acted, spending eternity in Heaven or Hell. Yet someone born into an affluent family with good parents is far more likely to grow up kind and virtuous. Compare this with someone born to a Black, single, meth-addicted, prostituting mother in a gang-infested city. What becomes of that person? Why would God create such unequal conditions? Past-life kamma can explain it, but “God’s will,” again, appears cruel and unfair.

Heaven Is Eternal

It is well known among Christians that Lucifer was a fallen angel—and not only him, but roughly 30% of the angels followed him. If Heaven is eternal, then why are they no longer there? Is it considered a new life in Hell? According to Buddhism, spontaneous rebirths often retain memory, or so it seems.

Playing the Devil’s Advocate

Although many things do not make sense, there is a growing area of “disclosure” regarding so-called “aliens.” The terminology is shifting: UFO is now UAP; alien is now “non-human intelligence.” There is talk about these beings living in the ocean. This correlates with Buddhist cosmology and Greek mythology. Mount Olympus and Mount Meru share striking parallels. The “fallen angels” could even be interpreted as aliens. There is increasing discussion about interdimensional beings and spiritual beings taking human form.

In Buddhism, Sakka comes to Earth in human form. Nagas disguise themselves as men to ordain. Yakkhinis take on enchanting forms and prey on unsuspecting young men. Vimana stories describe vehicles that fly through the sky. Even chariots that transport beings to the next world appear in the texts. The Agañña Sutta has many parallels with Genesis, and the PTS even titled it accordingly.

Across cultures, ancient stories match with slight variations—suggesting that something underlying them may be real. Many in the UFO community are now concluding that the spiritual angle fits best.

Satire Religion

The Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM) is a satirical deity invented by American physicist Bobby Henderson in 2005 as the central figure of Pastafarianism, a parody religion designed to mock the advocacy for teaching intelligent design alongside evolutionary biology in public school science classe

Beyond Belief

A book compiling mistakes in Christianity:

I wouldnt say your arguments are scientific, just more based on logic. In truth yes, an almighty and all loving God is logically contradictory. Because of all the suffering in the world, he cannot be all loving if he is almighty, if he is almighty, he cannot be all loving. This is based on logic tho, not science, which requires controlled experiments to support a hypothesis.

This doesnt mean there isnt a creator god/gods tho. the god(s) just cant be both almighty and all loving.

What we do know from the Buddha of course, is that the existence of a creator god/gods is irrelevant and unbeneficial.

Almost all cultures I’m aware of have a theistic conception of Creation, but many of them don’t assume an Almighty Deity. Some models propose a polytheistic creation, where antagonistic forces in the universe are explained by conflicts between deities (examples include Manichaeism and Zoroastrianism). Others assume a creative force that was active at the beginning but is much less active (sometimes absent) in the present time. There are also conceptions of creator deities whose powers are limited. Even among some Christian sects, the belief in an Omnipotent Creator God was questioned— as was the case with Gnostic sects, which believed in a failed Creator God of the material universe, antagonistic to the true God. These conceptions of divine creation are not so problematic, at least from a philosophical and logical point of view. Whether they withstand rigorous scientific analysis or are compatible with the teachings of the Buddha is another discussion.

The most problematic conceptions are those that assume omnipotent deities, especially if those deities can change the will of living beings or give rewards based on arbitrary criteria (the good being punished and the bad being rewarded)— because such notions would contradict the principles of personal responsibility and kamma. The Hebrew God of the Old Testament, for example, is said to have control over the universe down to its smallest details and also over people’s choices. For instance, He is said to have “hardened Pharaoh’s heart” so that the israelites would not be freed before the tenth plague. The notion that His justice is based on the free will of his creatures seems to be a later development.

I don’t think the ancient Hebrews viewed their God as entirely benevolent or omniscient. Those concepts were probably later developments influenced by external cultures and subsequently passed on to the emerging Christian and Muslim movements.