# Sāmaṇera by Choice: Avoiding Vinaya, Vassas, and Hierarchy **URL:** \ **Category:** General Theravada topics\ **Created:** [September 23, 2026, 11:16am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/sama-era-by-choice-avoiding-vinaya-vassas-and-hierarchy/2641 "2026-09-23T11:16:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Phaeton](https://classicaltheravada.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phaeton](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/Phaeton)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2026, 11:16am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/sama-era-by-choice-avoiding-vinaya-vassas-and-hierarchy/2641/1 "2026-09-23T11:16:06Z")
Based on the experience of the venerable monks on this forum, how often does a sāmaṇera decide against taking upasampadā because he wishes to avoid participating in sanghakamma, accumulating vassas, holding a certain status (steering clear of all hierarchies, positions, and administrative duties), and dealing with so many vows (not needing to track the intricate nuances of the 227 Pātimokkha rules), and so forth—or a bhikkhu relinquish his status in favor of returning to sāmaṇera status for these same reasons? And is this considered normal or acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/bksubhuti/32/19_2.png) [@bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/bksubhuti)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2026, 3:49am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/sama-era-by-choice-avoiding-vinaya-vassas-and-hierarchy/2641/2 "2026-09-24T03:49:17Z")
It is **not** very common but does exist. It is more common in India. Some might do it for medical reasons, to take their own food they need. However, if you really knew about Vinaya, you would be afraid to be a sāmaṇera. The reason is that if you break any of the five precepts, you lose your pabbajjā, and you need to find your teacher and retake tisaraṇa and 10 precepts. For temporary ordination, this is best and preferred, if you want my opinion. I’m a fan of temporary ordinations, but not the temporary full ordinations when it is my decision. If it is not my decision, or responsibility, I’ll play along and help ordain them. We sort of have to if it is done at the monastery we live in. If the ordination is done properly, they are real monks, even if they only intend on 3 days (common in Myanmar). Furthermore, you are bound to a teacher for life. On the contrary, it is very difficult to lose your bhikkhu ordination besides breaking the 4 pārājika. ---
**Author:** ![Gijjhakuta](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/gijjhakuta/32/1398_2.png) [@Gijjhakuta](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/Gijjhakuta)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2026, 10:20am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/sama-era-by-choice-avoiding-vinaya-vassas-and-hierarchy/2641/3 "2026-09-24T10:20:06Z")
> [@bksubhuti](#): > > if you break any of the five precepts, you lose your pabbajjā Can you guide us to where that is in the Pali? > [@bksubhuti](#): > > On the contrary, it is very difficult to lose your bhikkhu ordination besides breaking the 4 pārājika. Is there another way? Other than intentionally disrobing, that is. > [@Phaeton](#): > > positions, and administrative duties While there will be some duties exclusively for monks, being a samanera doesn’t eliminate duties. ---
**Author:** ![bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/bksubhuti/32/19_2.png) [@bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/bksubhuti)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2026, 11:21am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/sama-era-by-choice-avoiding-vinaya-vassas-and-hierarchy/2641/4 "2026-09-24T11:21:10Z")
> [@Gijjhakuta](#): > > > [@bksubhuti](#): > > > > if you break any of the five precepts, you lose your pabbajjā > > Can you guide us to where that is in the Pali? Here is the quote: It is automatic, and not a “choice” to expel the novice monk. I have fully researched this 20 years ago as part of the reason [why I ordained twice](https://americanmonk.org/why-i-ordained-twice/). Although I wrongly focused on this topic rather than if some can ordain directly (_he can_), the subject and point stands with what I said. (And this was said by Bhante Ariyadhamma MahaThera 20 years ago). [mahāvaggapāḷi p119](https://tpr.pali.tools/open?book_id=mula_vi_03&page_number=119&name=mah%C4%81vaggap%C4%81%E1%B8%B7i¬e&selected_text=YW51asSBbsSBbWksIGJoaWtraGF2ZSwgZGFzYWhh4bmFZ2VoaSBzYW1hbm7EgWdhdGHhuYMgc8SBbWHhuYdlcmHhuYMgbsSBc2V0deG5gw%3D%3D) > **anujānāmi, bhikkhave, dasahaṅgehi samannāgataṃ sāmaṇeraṃ nāsetuṃ.** > “Monks, I allow a sāmaṇera endowed with ten qualities to be expelled. > **pāṇātipātī hoti, adinnādāyī hoti, abrahmacārī hoti, musāvādī hoti, majjapāyī hoti, buddhassa avaṇṇaṃ bhāsati, dhammassa avaṇṇaṃ bhāsati, saṅghassa avaṇṇaṃ bhāsati, micchādiṭṭhiko hoti, bhikkhunidūsako hoti – anujānāmi, bhikkhave, imehi dasahaṅgehi samannāgataṃ sāmaṇeraṃ nāsetunti.** > He takes life, he takes what is not given, he engages in unchaste conduct, he speaks falsely, he drinks intoxicants, he speaks dispraise of the Buddha, he speaks dispraise of the Dhamma, he speaks dispraise of the Saṅgha, he holds wrong views, he corrupts bhikkhunīs – Monks, I allow a sāmaṇera endowed with these ten qualities to be expelled.” [From the bmc II](https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/Ebooks/BMC1&2_220701.pdf) > 1. Mv.I.60 lists ten grounds for expelling a novice from his status as a > novice: He breaks any of his first five precepts; he speaks in dispraise of > the Buddha, Dhamma, or Saṅgha; he holds to wrong views (such things > as eternalism, fatalism, or annihilationism, says the Commentary); or he > rapes a bhikkhunī. > > The Commentary to Mv.I.60 states that a novice who breaks any of > his first five precepts has cut himself o from the Triple Refuge, from his > teacher, and from his right to a dwelling in a monastery. He is still a > novice, though, and if he sees the error of his ways and is determined to > restrain himself in the future, he may take the Triple Refuge from his > teacher again and so be restored to his former status. It might easily be related to merely complaining about the texts, even complaining about the **Abhidhamma** or the future rules of **vinaya** that he is learning. Commentaries will count as Dhamma too. EBT and suttanta schools of the West can be dangerous for a novice. . . . As for your next question: Yes there are other ways but too complex to mention and not related to sāmaṇeras. > [@Gijjhakuta](#): > > Is there another way? Other than intentionally disrobing, that is. Simply just removing the robes and dressing and acting like a lay person “does not disrobe you”. You have to fully disrobe a special way (but there are many ways and options. You can read about this in the BMC). However, a novice monk is automatically disrobed once he mentally and physically takes the form as a layperson. He puts on a T-Shirt and enjoys how it looks contemplating lay life. This is enough. That is why novice monks are instructed to bathe with a robe cloth (if you ever wondered why). We are getting a little technical here. It is best not to dive down this rabbit hole. The main thing to know is related to my two original statements: > [@bksubhuti](#): > > However, if you really knew about Vinaya, you would be afraid to be a sāmaṇera. The reason is that if you break any of the five precepts, you lose your pabbajjā, and you need to find your teacher and retake tisaraṇa and 10 precepts. > [@bksubhuti](#): > > On the contrary, it is very difficult to lose your bhikkhu ordination ---
**Author:** ![bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/bksubhuti/32/19_2.png) [@bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/bksubhuti)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2026, 11:34am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/sama-era-by-choice-avoiding-vinaya-vassas-and-hierarchy/2641/5 "2026-09-24T11:34:15Z")
> [@Gijjhakuta](#): > > While there will be some duties exclusively for monks, being a samanera doesn’t eliminate duties. Sāmaṇeras usually have more work and duties than monks do. Why? They have fewer rules. They have to offer food, they have to pick flowers, they have duties to the teacher to clean his kuṭi, and they have many other duties as well. Besides being younger in age and definitely seniority, they have much learning to do. If they do something wrong with the remaining last five precepts (6-10), they have “daṇḍakamma” and have to carry water and sand or perform other chores. There are many duties of a novice monk, and like bhikkhunīs, they are by law always to be living with bhikkhus or nearby. They cannot have their freedom and autonomy. ---
**Author:** ![Gijjhakuta](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/gijjhakuta/32/1398_2.png) [@Gijjhakuta](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/Gijjhakuta)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2026, 12:44am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/sama-era-by-choice-avoiding-vinaya-vassas-and-hierarchy/2641/6 "2026-09-25T00:44:17Z")
> [@bksubhuti](#): > > Simply just removing the robes Of course when I said disrobing, I meant renouncing the training, not the literal taking off of robes. ---
**Author:** ![bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/bksubhuti/32/19_2.png) [@bksubhuti](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/bksubhuti)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2026, 3:19am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/sama-era-by-choice-avoiding-vinaya-vassas-and-hierarchy/2641/7 "2026-09-25T03:19:18Z")
> [@Gijjhakuta](#): > > Of course when I said disrobing, I meant renouncing the training, not the literal taking off of robes. There are said cases of monks who want to disrobe.. they just change into lay clothes. They don’t follow procedure. They might post on facebook in writing. That does not count. They are still monks. There are several factors to disrobe. - ordained monk has intention to disrobe and is sane. - he verbally speaks any of the standard phrases. - present tense grammar is used - another human hears and understands is present BMC has a whole [chapter](https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/Section0009.html) on disrobing. If all of this is not done, then when the “improperly disrobed monk” has sexual activity, he becomes pārājika and can never ordain again. This is a **standard** teaching to bhikkhus about the dangers of not disrobing properly as part of standard preparatory education. ---
**Author:** ![Gijjhakuta](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/gijjhakuta/32/1398_2.png) [@Gijjhakuta](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/Gijjhakuta)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2026, 3:39am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/sama-era-by-choice-avoiding-vinaya-vassas-and-hierarchy/2641/8 "2026-09-25T03:39:08Z")
Of course when I said renounce the training, I meant follow the proper procedure for becoming not a monk. I didn’t think I would have to spell it out in detail.