# Pairs of Ariyas

**URL:** <https://classicaltheravada.org/t/pairs-of-ariyas/595>\
**Category:** General Theravada topics\
**Created:** [November 24, 2022, 6:54am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/pairs-of-ariyas/595 "2022-11-24T06:54:45Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 7\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Trobinson465](https://classicaltheravada.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/t/e47c2d/32.png) [@Trobinson465](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/Trobinson465)\
**Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 6:54am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/pairs-of-ariyas/595/1 "2022-11-24T06:54:45Z")

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Hello all,

Does anyone understand the classical Theravada understanding of the 8 types of ariya - the four types of noble ones taken in pairs.

> **sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanne** dānaṁ datvā  
> having given a gift to one who has entered upon the way to experiencing the fruit of Stream-Entry
> 
> asaṅkheyyā appameyyā dakkhiṇā pāṭikaṅkhitabbā.  
> an immeasurable, unlimited offering is to be expected (in return).
> 
> Ko pana vādo **Sotāpanne**?  
> What to say about a Stream-Enterer?
> 
> Ko pana vādo **Sakadāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanne**?  
> What to say about one who has entered upon the way to experiencing the fruit of Once-Returning?
> 
> Ko pana vādo **Sakadāgāmissa**?  
> What to say about a Once-Returner?
> 
> Ko pana vādo **Anāgāmiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanne**?  
> What to say about one who has entered upon the way to experiencing the fruit of Non-Returning?
> 
> Ko pana vādo **Anāgāmissa**?  
> What to say about a Non-Returner?
> 
> Ko pana vādo **Arahattaphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanne**?  
> What to say about one who has entered upon the way to experiencing the fruit of Worthiness?
> 
> Ko pana vādo **Arahante**?  
> What to say about a Worthy One?

[https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ … 0woGA#toc3](https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/Texts-and-Translations/Short-Pieces/Dakkhinavibhangasuttam.htm?fbclid=IwAR12-YJu9jLkaknEKpgKDBBYEWl9clsQY1PJry7z6p4TRK4mN_cpeu0woGA#toc3)

Buddhaghosa’s Visuddhimagga has a chapter on this in XXII regarding Gotrabhu (change of lineage) and then the 8 types of ariyas (path and fruit of each stage of enlightenment). But I can’t say I understand what he’s talking about when he distinguishes between one who has entered upon the path of a sotapanna and an actual sotapanna who has realized the fruits.

> 1. Immediately next to that knowledge [path of sotapanna], however, there arise either two or three  
> fruition consciousnesses, which are its result. For it is owing to this very fact that  
> supramundane profitable [consciousness] results immediately that it is said,  
> “And which he called the concentration with immediate result” (Sn 226), and  
> “Sluggishly he reaches what has immediate result for the destruction of the  
> cankers” (A II 149), and so on.
> 2. Some, however, say that there are one, two, three, four, or five fruition  
> consciousnesses. That is inadmissible. For change-of-lineage knowledge arises  
> at the end of conformity’s repetition, so at the minimum there must be two  
> conformity consciousnesses, since one alone does not act as repetition condition.  
> And a single series of impulsions has a maximum of seven [impulsion]  
> consciousnesses. Consequently, that series which has two conformities and  
> change-of-lineage as a third and path consciousness as fourth has three fruition  
> consciousnesses. That which has three conformities and change-of-lineage as  
> fourth and path consciousness as fifth has two fruition consciousnesses. That is  
> why it was said above, “There arise either two or three fruition consciousnesses.”
> 3. Then some say that which has four conformities and change-of-lineage as  
> fifth and path consciousness as sixth has one fruition consciousness. But that is  
> refuted because it is the fourth or fifth [impulsion] that reaches [the path], not  
> those after that, owing to their nearness to the life-continuum (see IV.75). So that  
> cannot be accepted as correct. [676]
> 4. And at this point this stream-enterer is called the second noble person.  
> However negligent he may be, he is bound to make an end of suffering when he  
> has travelled and traversed the round of rebirths among deities and human  
> beings for the seventh time.

The common non-classical idea that anyone practicing to be a sotapanna is one who has entered the path doesnt seem to be supported by the Visuddhimagga, which states the level of gotrabhu must be achieved before entering upon the path to sotapanna, and if you look at the preceding chapter in the Vism, gotrabhu requires some attainment of jhana and mastery of the conformity knowledges first. the difference between path and fruit of ariya stages seems to be meditative attainment/fetter(?) related but perhaps in a more subtle way than the differences in the actual four levels of enlightement. Although if someone was to ask me to explain the difference between path and fruit of ariya stages I certainly dont think i could.

Is anyone here knowledgeable in this? Or at least think you know what Buddhaghosa is talking about?

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**Author:** ![RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/robertk/32/1498_2.png) [@RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/RobertK)\
**Post date:** [November 25, 2022, 3:23am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/pairs-of-ariyas/595/2 "2022-11-25T03:23:27Z")

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Your questions seems to be similar to this topic.

> [@Gap between Magga and Phala: Yes Or No?](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/gap-between-magga-and-phala-yes-or-no/574):
>
> I often see online Buddhist articles by Bhikkhu Bodhi and Piya Tan saying that there is a gap between Magga and Phala (eg: Sotapattimagga and Sotapattiphala), means there will be a period for the aspirant to train further. One argument presented by Bhikkhu Bodhi is the sutta statement whereby Buddha said one who makes offering to a Sotapattimagga person will generate tremendous merits. And if we are to follow classical commentary tradition, Sotapattiphala person is only existing at a mere momen…

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**Author:** ![Trobinson465](https://classicaltheravada.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/t/e47c2d/32.png) [@Trobinson465](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/Trobinson465)\
**Post date:** [November 25, 2022, 6:30am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/pairs-of-ariyas/595/3 "2022-11-25T06:30:36Z")

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Yes, it certainly seems similar. Although maybe a bit different though. The other post mentions the magga phase is experienced only for a moment prior to the phala phase. My question is more, what is the difference between the magga and phala phase at all? Even if the magga phase lasts just a moment what is the distinguishing feature between them that gives one a reason to differentiate them?

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**Author:** ![RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/robertk/32/1498_2.png) [@RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/RobertK)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2022, 3:30am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/pairs-of-ariyas/595/4 "2022-11-26T03:30:49Z")

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Hi Trobinson  
To your question , yes the magga citta is only one moment and then the phala cittas arise in the same process for only 2 or 3 moments. It all happens in a flash.  
From A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas:  
[A-Survey-of-Paramattha-Dhammas.pdf](https://classicaltheravada.org/uploads/short-url/uCLcOhlOuiDaSvzvguLiswcEFJ9.pdf) (1.1 MB)

> Lokuttara citta is of two j¯atis: kusala and vip¯aka. There is no lokuttara kiriyacitta.  
> There are eight types of lokuttara citta, corresponding with the  
> four stages of enlightenment. For each stage there is the magga-citta,  
> path-consciousness, which is lokuttara kusala citta, and the fruitionconsciousness, phala-citta, which is lokuttara vip¯akacitta.  
> […]

> **The lokuttara kusala citta is the condition for the lokuttara vip¯akacitta**  
> **\> to succeed it immediately; there is no other type of citta arising in**  
> **\> between the lokuttara kusala citta, which is cause, and the lokuttara**  
> **\> vip¯akacitta, which is result. Apart from the lokuttara kusala citta, no**  
> **\> other type of kusala citta can produce vip¯akacitta immediately succeeding it.**
> 
> As soon as the magga-citta of the sot¯apanna, which is lokuttara  
> kusala citta, has fallen away, it is succeeded by the phala-citta that is  
> lokuttara vip¯akacitta. It is the same in the case of the magga-citta and  
> the phala-citta of the sakad¯ag¯am¯ı, the an¯ag¯am¯ı and the arahat.  
> The four types of lokuttara vip¯akacitta, the phala-cittas, cannot perform the functions of rebirth, bhavanga and dying. They are different  
> from mundane vip¯akacittas.9 The lokuttara vip¯akacitta that immediately succeeds the lokuttara kusala citta also has nibb¯ana as object. The  
> lokuttara vip¯akacitta, the phala-citta, performs the function of javana  
> in the same process as the lokuttara kusala citta that precedes it. The  
> phala-citta is the only type of vip¯akacitta that can perform the function  
> of javana in a process. It performs the function of javana and it has  
> nibb¯ana as object. Each type of lokuttara kusala citta arises only once  
> in the cycle of birth and death and it eradicates defilements completely,  
> in conformity with the stage of enlightenment that has been attained.  
> However, there are two or three lokuttara vip¯akacittas arising after the  
> lokuttara kusala citta; these succeed one another and have nibb¯ana as  
> object. It depends on the type of person who attains enlightenment  
> whether phala-citta arises two or three times.

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**Author:** ![RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/robertk/32/1498_2.png) [@RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/RobertK)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2022, 3:39am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/pairs-of-ariyas/595/5 "2022-11-26T03:39:51Z")

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the **Atthasalini** – **The expositor** PTS (translator : maung tin).  
P58. Triplets in the Matika  
Has a useful section where it explains that the process where Nibbana is attained has the same level of concentration as mundane jhana - but very different in other aspects from mundane jhana.

The Discourse on LOKUTTARA (transcendental).

> “He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the ecstatic jhana of one **momentary flash of consciousness**. because it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this is jhana called going out… **This is not like that which is known as ‘leading to accumulation’** which heaps up and increases rebirths by the moral(kusala) consciousness of the three planes[includes kusala such as giving as well as all levels of “mundane” jhana]  
> “

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/user_avatar/classicaltheravada.org/robertk/32/1498_2.png) [@RobertK](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/RobertK)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2022, 3:50am UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/pairs-of-ariyas/595/6 "2022-11-26T03:50:14Z")

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> [@Trobinson465](#):
>
> The common non-classical idea that anyone practicing to be a sotapanna is one who has entered the path doesnt seem to be supported by the Visuddhimagga, which states the level of gotrabhu must be achieved before entering upon the path to sotapanna, and **if you look at the preceding chapter in the Vism, gotrabhu requires some attainment of jhana** and mastery of the conformity knowledges first.

Maybe you can quote that. But actually no mundane jhana is required prior to magga citta.

here is a topic about this:

> [@The path of the dry-insight worker — sukkhavipassaka](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/the-path-of-the-dry-insight-worker-sukkhavipassaka/22/1):
>
> This thread will document some of the basis and evidence for the path of the sukkhavipassaka, as detailed in the Pali Canon and Commentaries. I would like to acknowledge the work of Tzungkuen Wen, whose phd thesis collected many useful references. [http://tkwen.sutta.org/A%20Study%20of%20Sukkihavipassaka%20in%20Pali%20Buddhism\_final.pdf](http://tkwen.sutta.org/A%20Study%20of%20Sukkihavipassaka%20in%20Pali%20Buddhism_final.pdf)

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**Author:** ![Trobinson465](https://classicaltheravada.org/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/t/e47c2d/32.png) [@Trobinson465](https://classicaltheravada.org/u/Trobinson465)\
**Post date:** [November 26, 2022, 9:40pm UTC](https://classicaltheravada.org/t/pairs-of-ariyas/595/7 "2022-11-26T21:40:07Z")

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> [@RobertK](#):
>
> Maybe you can quote that. But actually no mundane jhana is required prior to magga citta.

Aww yes, looks like you’re right. change-of-lineage comes after conformity knowledges but it doenst look like you necessarily need jhana for the conformity knowledges.