Nibbana (Nirodha) from the viewpoint of Arūpa Jhāna

[char101]

It is also interesting that the famous quote in Udana also reference the arupa jhanas.

There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished. This, just this, is the end of stress.

[RobertK]

@char101

is also interesting that the famous quote in Udana also reference the arupa jhanas.

Yes, but only to show it is not any of those

[bksubhuti]

I think people confuse the “taking of Nibbāna as object” for meditation
and Parinibbāna. The description above, free from “mind and matter” can be taken as an object of meditation for fruition consciousness. Parinibbāna is when everything ends with nothing to arise again without remainder.

[Nikolay_Gnatyuk]

@char101

Yes this is purely a speculation. But the novelty of the idea is using perception to explain what nibbana is. Nibbana is often defined as the permanent destruction of nama-rupa, which tend to feel like annihilation. Annihilation is usually countered using the argument that since there is no “I” then there is no self that is annihilated. Still the nama-rupa exists (or to be correct: the cycle of rebirth) and it is then destroyed (or stopped in terms of the rebirth cycle). One of the strongest instrict of a living being is survival so nibbana is contradictory to that basic instrict. Which make nibbana less appealing as a goal.

Kamma is the fuel that produces new nama rupa. Perception can be considered the fuel pipe, because it is via perception that feeling occurs, and then tanha, upadana, new kamma, and so on. By constraining the fuel pipe, we can also constrain the effect of kamma. By fully constraining the fuel pipe, the creation of new nama-rupa can be stopped. This isn’t annihilation but cessation which I found more inline with the meaning of the word nibbana itself.

But I don’t understand what your innovation is, how it differs from the same concept of the cessation of being and consciousness, and why it is more attractive?

[bksubhuti]

@Nikolay_Gnatyuk

But I don’t understand what your innovation is, how it differs from the same concept of the cessation of being and consciousness, and why it is more attractive?

Your question has too many pronouns… “It”

Why is what more attractive.? If we take the context of the topic title and if you are asking why Parinibbāna is more attractive than Arūpajjhāna or asññāssatta realms, the answer is easy. The arūpa jhāna or asaññassatta realms eventually end and the cycle of rebirth can continue. That means that other existances can arise later (like the 4 woeful states). According to logic, we have already been in these arūpa jhāna or asaññasatta realms. What good has it done for us? So we can discuss this topic here now on CT? Final Nibbāna is the end of suffering. There is no more re-occurring. No more becoming again. It is the End. There is nothing more to be done.

[Nikolay_Gnatyuk]

The author of the post said that the view of nibbana as the cessation of perception may in the long run be more attractive and less “annihilationist”, that is, the view of nibbana as the cessation of nama-rupa. I quoted the passage where he says this. I personally did not understand the difference between this new emphasis and the generally accepted view of the subject.

[RobertK]

@Nikolay_Gnatyuk

I personally did not understand the difference between this new emphasis

Welcome to the forum Nikolay. I didn’t understand it either.
Maybe @char101 will explain.

[bksubhuti]

Vibaṅga pāḷi mmpara 1029

ukkhittā puññatejena, thrown up by the power of merit

kāmarūpagatiṃ gatā. they have gone to the sensuous and material realms

bhavaggatampi sampattā, even to the end of the realm,

punāgacchanti tāva dīghāyukā sattā, beings with that much long life-span come again,

cavanti āyusaṅkhayā, they die by exhaustion of life span,

natthi koci bhavo nicco, there is no ever-lasting life,

iti vuttaṃ mahesinā. Thus, said by the great sage.

tasmā hi dhīrā nipakā, nipuṇā atthacintakā, therefore indeed the wise, the intelligent, the skilled, the one who knows the meaning

jarāmaraṇamokkhāya, bhāventi maggamuttamaṃ. they developed the noble path for liberation of aging and dead,

bhāvayitvā suciṃ maggaṃ, having developed the pure path,

sabbāsave pariññāya, having known all the defilement completely,

nibbānogadhagāminaṃ, leading to an immersion in Nibbāna,

parinibbanti anāsavāti. becoming arahant without defilement.