It is good you are here Greg. From the horses mouth etc
Discerning The Past
To discern the past the meditator begins by making an offering
of either candles, flowers, or incense at a pagoda or in front of a
Buddha image and making a wish to be reborn as a monk, nun,
man, woman, deva or whatever he would like to become.
Then he goes and sit in meditation and develops concentration
and then discerns in turn mentality and matter that is internal and
external. This is important for if the meditator cannot discern
external mentality and matter he will have great difficulty discerning
mentality and matter in the past. This is because of the similarity
of external mentality and matter and past mentality and matter.
Then the meditator tries to discern the mentality and matter that
occurred at the time of making the offering at the pagoda or buddha
image as if they were an external object. He should find that while
doing this an image of himself at that time of offering appears.
Then he discerns the four elements in that image.
I have to say it is different from how I look to understand dependent origination…Mind you it is the present rather than past that is my interest.
No there isn’t a Part 2 as I left and disrobed and never finished the part 2 and been wandering around samsara doing other things for nearly 30 years now. So that is all I was able to produce at that time. Everytime I have met Pa Auk Sayadaw he always asks me to translate his big book that took him 10 years to write and I tell him it would take me 10 years to translate it. In my heart I don’t think more complexity makes things easier. So I keep it simple. There were 7 small books which meditators at pa auk used as they practised. This part 1 is based on one or two of those. So there is a lot more to go. But for me personally that was enough. If I had enough samadhi to be able to do all the stuff in book part 1 I would then move onto the rest. But my own practice led me down a different path. So it is all an open question to me and I continue my journey using what is appropriate to me in my own life. Such is life.
Although Pa Auk Sayadaw is now known internationally, Greg believes he was the first Westerner to ever meet and study with him, even rooming with him for a full year.
Greg spends a lot of time talking about what a fascinating figure Pa Auk is. On the one hand, the great monk is quite orthodox in his approach. His system is directly grounded in the Pāḷi Cannon and Commentaries, in particular the Visudhimagga, more so than any other contemporary tradition. On the other hand, Pa Auk was also considered very radical because his teaching implicitly calls into question not only the validity of the Mahasi approach—the major meditation tradition in contemporary Burma—but pretty much all other traditions as well; many monks rejected him outright or ignored him completely. Senior teachers at Panditarama and Mahasi refused to even read Pa Auk’s books, and the press (then controlled by the government, which itself was linked to the Mahasi tradition) wouldn’t even publish them! And yet because Pa Auk was so extremely learned and gifted with a photographic memory, he always got the better of anyone who tried to dispute with him about his teachings.
Greg explains that early on, Pa Auk was quite influenced by the Four Elements meditation of Than Lyin Sayadaw and the ānāpāna practice of Kanni Sayadaw. Pa Auk also learned the Mahasi technique, but was ultimately not satisfied and went off to sit and study on his own for many years. When he emerged again, he had woven together his complex but well-integrated system. Although he used to stress Four Elements meditation first, Pa Auk first teaches ānāpāna now, with an emphasis on developing strong samādhi, which is then used as a springboard for Four Elements meditation and other insight practices. Greg says that Pa Auk has a rigorous perspective on what it takes to attain even the first stage of enlightenment, including, for example, the need to directly experience the workings of karma in all three time scales of the paticcasamuppada.
All very interesting. Also the mention of all the other well known teachers you met including Ajarn Chah and Mahasi sayadaw. More details on any of them and any experiences would be hugely appreciated by our members I am sure.
I was interviewed by insight myanmar as well.
He paired me with half of the podcast and the other with thabbawara sayadaw, but it looked like I was connected to him.
I asked to be deleted and he did.
My reasons have nothing to do with Insight Myanmar or their integrity or ability. I would recommend all their podcasts that are out there and I wish I had the time to listen to more. The interviews are a fantastic and honest resource on Myanmar Buddhism.
Do I understand correctly that, from the perspective of Pa-Auk Sayadaw, Mahasi Sayadaw’s approach to insight appears incomplete or insufficient? Does this mean that the fruits of practice in the Mahasi style are being called into question? What is the correct way to understand this?
Mahasi method, there is no practice with contemplation on saṃsāra and one’s own past lives (as well as externally).
I guess that is what we call incomplete, right?
What is 4 Noble Truths?
What is the Goal of Buddhism if it is not to escape Saṃsāra.
It went both ways, actually. Traditionally the Pa-Auk method was heavily criticized by the Mahasi camp too. So much so that the Burmese banned much of the Pa-Auk literature in Burma.
Pa-Auk Sayadaw’s massive, multi-volume magnum opus, “Nibbāna Gāminī Paṭipadā” (“The Path Leading to Nibbāna”) was also targeted.
Senior Mahasi-aligned scholars reviewed the text and drafted a series of formal, written complaints and theological refutations. They claimed that Pa-Auk’s assertions—specifically that a meditator can directly see subatomic particle groups (kalāpas) and individual thought-moments (cittavīthi)—contradicted traditional Burmese Abhidhamma interpretation.
I don’t know if the Pa-Auk camp still holds that these things are possible.
Did you meet Mahasi Sayadaw and how would you assert he was an arahant?
I met him. He was extremely mindful and a great monk. He achieved some great things in his life and deserved every bit of praise he got. He personally told me he never did any other meditation besides noting at the 6 sense doors. He never did 32 parts of the body or anapana or any jhana practice. So if I hadn’t heard this from him I would not have known.
I hope he was an arahant but that is just an assertion of yours that no one can prove. He wrote many books his dhamma talks were simple and concise. He did a word by word translation of the mahasatipatthana sutta which I used to make my own translation of it into english. He also did a 4 volume burmese translation of the visuddhimagga which is excellent as well.
He also wrote a great book “Vipassana Shu Nee kyan” The method of doing Vipassana during ww2. His first manuscript was destroyed in Shwe Bo when his monastery was blown up during the war. He wrote it again.
But having met him and Pa Auk sayadaw they are teaching somethings that overlap but a lot that is very different. They were and are both good monks and impressive and I have huge respect for them. Problem is it is not possible to know if they are not teaching the same Dhamma. I think they have a lot of divergence to be honest.
Mahasi sayadaw was only teaching a a "pure Vipassana " sukkha-vipassaka method. He specifically used rising and falling of the abdomen as an object so meditators would not attain jhana or get a nimitta like in anapana. Quite interesting really.
Pa Auk sayadaw taught that as 4 elements meditation, but also all the samatha meditations. So in many ways they are vastly different. Pa Auk sayadaws exposition of the stages of insight is also vastly different.
It is a big puzzle that needs ones own experience to solve it.
Sayadaw’s books were never banned by the censors. The censors let us publish them and use them in Pa Auk Monasteries. We had the book “Nibbāna Gāminī Paṭipadā” reviewed by a Tipitaka Sayadaw and other learned monks. None of the them disagreed with what was written or had objections to publishing. The censors i think were Mahasi monks so they thought that if we published it would cause controversy and so somewhere in there they said we could publish to use in Pa Auk Monasteries.
Yes kalapas are definitely knowable in paauk teaching and you can discern all the elements in them. All cittas and cetasikas are also examined. Also the paticcasamupada over 3 times. Also external objects are also used to develop insight. Quite interesting stuff.
Mahasi Sayadaw is believed to be an arahant based on various events, including his leadership in the sixth sangayana. He also hinted that he was an arahant right before he led the sixth sangayana.
The accuracy of his teaching is the reason why Mahasi Vipassana tradition was established.
I cannot find the relics of Mahasi Sayadaw. Not all arahants left relics. Some did:
Our final stop before a light dinner at Ma Khain’s was at the late Monle Sayadaw’s meditation centre where his bone, brain and heart relics were on display for public viewing. [Burma Day 7: Webu Sayadaw — Insight Myanmar]
In 1997 the Sayadaw published his magnum opus, a massive five-volume work titled The Practice that Leads to Nibbāna, explaining the entire course of teaching in detail and supported by copious quotations from the Pāli Texts – it is currently available only in Burmese and Sinhalese. The Sayadaw’s teachings have been published (in English ) in several books which are highly regarded internationally (see Books by The Most Venerable Pa-Auk Tawya Sayadaw). [About Us - Pa-Auk Tawya]
The publications of Pa-Auk Tawya Sayadaw faced scrutiny and initial restrictions from Myanmar’s State Sangha Maha Nayaka Committee primarily because his rigorous methodological approach—insisting on deep concentration (samatha-jhāna) and the mastery of higher knowledges (abhiññā) as prerequisites for insight (vipassanā)—contrasted sharply with mainstream, traditional Burmese vipassanā methods. [1]
There are two kinds of meditation development, tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana). A person who, of these two, has first developed tranquillity, and after having established himself in either access concentration or full concentration,[10] subsequently contemplates the five groups of grasping,[11] is called a samatha-yanika, “one who has tranquillity as his vehicle.”
Please… try to know the real story. It was said by Greg. What @gregk did not say was that the book was later approved for publishing in Myanmar. Religious texts need to be approved by the Sāsana Committee if printed in Myanmar. So it was printed in Taiwan. It was merely political.
Nearly 20 years later, the Sāsana Committee proposed a mere two pages of errata to be fixed out of 2000-3000 pages. The majority were repeats. Instead of “past, future, and present,” which is normally the order given in Pāḷi, Sayadawgyi said “past, present, and future.” That was the majority of the fixes of the two pages that were requested for approval out of two or three thousand. If you know Abhidhamma, past, present, and future are said many times. You can see how a majority of the requested fixes totaling two pages would fill up with them. Nevertheless, Sayadawgyi refused to change anything! His donors pleaded with him.. and then he said they can do what they wanted (that is not officially his consent). This story was told to me by the chief admin monk.
Lastly, Sayadawgyi does teach a bare insight method without the need for jhāna. It is commonly misunderstood. The course can start with 4 Elements meditation instead of jhāna. It is often overlooked, but it is right there in front of you. It is possible to “finish the course” with (near to) access concentration.
Please be careful what you say. Learn the full story.
It was because the books were banned that Pa-Auk Sayadawgyi’s books were sought after. It was a Streisand Effect for Buddhist books.
