Do the suttas speak of bhavaïga-consciousness in the heart to move from the first jhâna to the second jhâna?

[LifelessAtta]

Thank you for this vital information.

Please, what books do you recommend I read to understand the doctrine and practices of the classical scholars you endorse? Thank you in advance.

[Matthias-Lentrein]

@ekocare

One decade back, the Nauyana Kammattana-acariya for lay people was a lunatic monk who was sending to mental-hospital time to time. Whenever he was returning from the mental hospital Ven. Ariyananda repeatedly appoints him again to the position of Kammatthana-acariya.

[quote=“ekocare, post:20, topic:790”]
One decade

He got his disease later. But his brother who is not a yogi has also this kind of disease. Kamma and genetic related problems.

Ok you are mentioning the weaknesses only.
It is true that to attain Jhāna does not make one free from kamma. One can still later disrobe, fall physically or mentally ill.

Unfortunately these things are not related to Pa Auk meditators only.
Many suicides and mental problems among the Venerabls in the others traditions.
Like this Ven following EBT, believing he was Sotapanna he killed himself…

But you are not mentioning the many good Venerables who have Jhāna Vipassanā Ñāna and are faring well… It is not fare I think.

[Matthias-Lentrein]

@jansen

(a) any Pali scripture that suggests we observe specifically the past (such as the past cittavithi) as a meditation practice and help me understand why did the Buddha suggested to not observe the past in several Majjhima Nikaya suttas, such as MN 131. Bhaddekaratta Sutta.

Thanks for your polite interventions Bhante
Sure bhante. The Anatta Lakkhaṇa Sutta which specifically instruct to see any rūpa, vedanā, sañña, saṅkhārā viññāṇa, past present future far near and so on as anicca, dukkha and anatta. This implies all cittas and cetasikas in the Vīthis.

The Buddha said to not observe the past and future as normal conceptual think that bring defilements. It is different from Vipassanā Ñāna.
In the same way even present objects can be a base for defilements.

[Matthias-Lentrein]

@jansen

(b) any Pali scripture which specifically says that anyone who enters phala samāpatti always upon entry must experience light.

Bhante it is not the main point of Phala Samāpatti. Because there is already light even from a bit of Samādhi, nothing to say about Vipassanā Ñāṇa. So the important point about Phala Samāpatti such as Jhāna factors , Pañca Vasī and so on are mentioned mainly.

[ekocare]

@LifelessAtta

Thank you for this vital information.

Please, what books do you recommend I read to understand the doctrine and practices of the classical scholars you endorse? Thank you in advance.

Orthodox Theravada Authority Precedence as mentioned in the Commentary:

1. Sutta (Tipitaka in Commentarial interpretation)
2. Suttanuloma (Mahapadesas)
3. Acariyavada (Commentary)
4. Attanomati (Personal opinion, including other teachers’)

For a brief understanding about the every main aspect of the Classical Position, we are advised to study at least the Visuddhimagga.

In order to understand the last chapters of Visuddhimagga, learning Abhidhammatthasangaha beforehand might be needed.

Visuddhimagga, Matikaatthakatha and Abhidhammatthasangaha are the classically recommended summaries of Sutta, Vinaya and Abhidhamma pitakas respectively.

Wish you best of luck with Buddhism.

@Matthias-Lentrein

He got his disease later. But his brother who is not a yogi has also this kind of disease. Kamma and genetic related problems.

Bhante,
It demands one of the following points.

1. Innate lunatics are successful in Paauk method up to the level of Kammatthanacariya.
   OR
2. Normal monks become lunatic after being successful in Paauk method.
   OR
3. Being lunatic (due to kamma or some other reason) doesn’t affect Paauk jhanas and the level of Kammatthanacariya.
   OR
4. The successful Paauk Kammatthanacariyas (like the abbot of Nauyana) believe that lunatics are qualified to bear the (very sensitive) position of Kammatthannacariya.
   OR
5. Paauk method is dangerous.
   OR
6. Some or many Paauk Kammatthanacariyas are mentally ill and the other Kammatthanacariyas who knowingly appoint them are not sensible and dangerous.

I think it is very sensitive.

@Matthias-Lentrein

Ok you are mentioning the weaknesses only.
It is true that to attain Jhāna does not make one free from kamma. One can still later disrobe, fall physically or mentally ill.

The problem is simultaneous existence of Jhana and Mental illness. Later illnesses can be different.

@Matthias-Lentrein

Unfortunately these things are not related to Pa Auk meditators only.
Many suicides and mental problems among the Venerabls in the others traditions.
Like this Ven following EBT, believing he was Sotapanna he killed himself…

Yes it is true.

@Matthias-Lentrein

But you are not mentioning the many good Venerables who have Jhāna Vipassanā Ñāna and are faring well… It is not fare I think.

I know many good venerables from Paauk and Naauyana. But how can we endorse their attainments while having the above mentioned observations in this thread.

If they seem like having genuine jhana, many people are willing to join with. The problem is the above mentioned sensible observations.

Still we can praise their Sila, respect of samadhi and classical bent. And we did it many times.

Vandami.

[LifelessAtta]

@ekocare

Orthodox Theravada Authority Precedence as mentioned in the Commentary:

1. Sutta (Tipitaka in Commentarial interpretation)
2. Suttanuloma (Mahapadesas)
3. Acariyavada (Commentary)
4. Attanomati (Personal opinion, including other teachers’)

For a brief understanding about the every main aspect of the Classical Position, we are advised to study at least the Visuddhimagga.

In order to understand the last chapters of Visuddhimagga, learning Abhidhammatthasangaha beforehand might be needed.

Visuddhimagga, Matikaatthakatha and Abhidhammatthasangaha are the classically recommended summaries of Sutta, Vinaya and Abhidhamma pitakas respectively.

Wish you best of luck with Buddhism.

Thank you very much for your help and encouragement. Good luck to you too.

[LifelessAtta]

@ekocare

I know many good venerables from Paauk and Naauyana. But how can we endorse their attainments while having the above mentioned observations in this thread.

You seem to disagree with Pa-Auk’s version of the jhânas. But do you at least think that the “jhanas” taught by Pa-Auk have a concentration powerful enough to allow the meditator to know whether his perceptions are creations imagined by his mind?

If so, it seems to me that we can say that Beth Upton (Pa-Auk’s former nun) directly perceived her previous lives, since she explains that she used the power of the fourth jhâna concentration to perceive her past lives (and therefore knew that her perception of her past lives was not an imagination).
What do you think?

[ekocare]

Based on our longtime observations, we can’t endorse the claims of Paauk as well as many other modern methods’ attainments.

But we can’t point out a person and say this person definitely doesn’t have jhanas, because it is not good and wise.

What we generally say is it is hard for us to believe that many of them have jhanas because we see many other weaknesses in them which seem not compatible with jhanas.

According to the classical books, we have understood jhanas as very stable type of mind which is very hard to achieve.

There is the space for such attainments but we can’t readily believe the claims without seeing a reasonable clue.

Some are said to be having

• Little samadhis
• Pure and akusala-less bhavanga continuum
• Imaginations

while misrecognizing them as Jhanas.

Though some of the following measures might be hard to check in some rare persons, such indicators/clues of attainers are to be "
visible to the wise" in most cases (even in most times of daily life), as we have understood jhanas.

• No sensual desires of any form. (no atleast indirect handling of money, different passions or expectations for even allowed things, kama for titles or acceptance or power … etc)
• No anger of any form. (no agitations, criticisms, complains etc.)
• No other Nivaranas (no sloth,torpor, restlessness, worries …etc)
• Higher Calmness of bodily and verbal behaviour. (unless in rare cases)
• Pure Sila. (can be checked only by longtime association)
• Higher mental stability. (absence of atleast temporary stress/depression and like)
• Higher wisdom. (can be checked only by longtime discussions) (absence of calm childishness and calm dullness)
• Not deviating from the Classical interpretation of Jhanas.
• Other related virtues (saddha, viriya, sati, honesty etc) (and sometimes even generosity, metta etc though they are not direct measures)

[LifelessAtta]

Thank you very much.

However, I thought that a person who had attained the jhanas could very well, in everyday life, be a restless person, mean, without wisdom, etc… For example, it seemed to me that some people (like Devadatta) had attained jhanas and psychic powers, but were also proud and haughty.

I didn’t know that attaining the jhanas necessarily meant having all the qualities you mention.

[ekocare]

@LifelessAtta

I thought that a person who had attained the jhanas could very well, in everyday life, be a restless person, mean, without wisdom, etc…

There was a monk from Nauyana who claimed jhana attainments and said the same thing (as you thought). Later he was revealed to be a lunatic and years later he had been sent to the mental hospital by force by the other monks of the monastery.

Since then the friend monks of him started not to believe in the idea you thought.

Once ven. Maggavihari at IIT preached that the jhana attainers have to protect the “Nimitta” even when they are not in jhanas. Otherwise they loose the jhana.

@LifelessAtta

For example, it seemed to me that some people (like Devadatta) had attained jhanas and psychic powers, but were also proud and haughty.

It says that Devadatta lost his jhanas after akusalas developed in him.

Very few Arahants like the Venerable Pilindiwaccha have shown some behaviours which are perceived as akusala but The Blessed One said that those were just the remains of their past Kilesa-habbits (vasana).

Even though there might be such hard cases, those seem to be rare.

@LifelessAtta

I didn’t know that attaining the jhanas necessarily meant having all the qualities you mention.

Those are explicit and implicit derivations from Sutta, Vinaya and Abhidhamma.
Explicit:
Panca nivarana explanations, Jhana factors explanations, Sila explanations, Sattavisuddhi explanations
Implicit:
Sattajatila sutta, Panna of Sila and Panna of Jhana, other implicit explanations and common sense.

[LifelessAtta]

Thank you very much

[Matthias-Lentrein]

@ekocare

• No sensual desires of any form. (no atleast indirect handling of money, different passions or expectations for even allowed things, kama for titles or acceptance or power … etc)
• No anger of any form. (no agitations, criticisms, complains etc.)
• No other Nivaranas (no sloth,torpor, restlessness, worries …etc)
• Higher Calmness of bodily and verbal behaviour. (unless in rare cases)
• Pure Sila. (can be checked only by longtime association)
• Higher mental stability. (absence of atleast temporary stress/depression and like)
• Higher wisdom. (can be checked only by longtime discussions) (absence of calm childishness and calm dullness)

Where these expectations come from?
Certainly not from the Pāli texts. One WITHIN jhāna is only TEMPORARY free from nīvarana during the time of his attainment .
Your idea of the qualities of a Jhāna Lābhi are not correct. How one with samādhi only would have these qualities of absence of kilesā?
As soon as a Jhāna attainer is not in Jhāna, because of ayonisomanasikāra he can experience defilements.

[Matthias-Lentrein]

@ekocare

It says that Devadatta lost his jhanas after akusalas developed in him.

Only when he had the intention to lead the Sangha. Before that the Venerable Devadatta used his psychic powers to do evil (such as to convince the Prince Ajātasattu to take the throne to his father by force and so on.)

[Matthias-Lentrein]

@ekocare

Once ven. Maggavihari at IIT preached that the jhana attainers have to protect the “Nimitta” even when they are not in jhanas. Otherwise they loose the jhana.

They are not always in upacāra, far from that.
Their kusala power allows them to get back their Jhāna after they lose it.

The mind is changing. Beings have kilesā. Jhāna is not Magga Phala, it does not uproot defilements.

[RobertK]

@LifelessAtta

But do you at least think that the “jhanas” taught by Pa-Auk have a concentration powerful enough to allow the meditator to know whether his perceptions are creations imagined by his mind?

If so, it seems to me that we can say that Beth Upton (Pa-Auk’s former nun) directly perceived her previous lives, since she explains that she used the power of the fourth jhâna concentration to perceive her past lives (and therefore knew that her perception of her past lives was not an imagination).
What do you think?

I think people can claim all types of achievements and sincerely believe they have them.

Genuine jhana is not an easy achievement.

The kasina preliminary work is difficult for a beginner and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. The arousing of the sign is difficult for one who has done the preliminary work and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it. To extend the sign when it has arisen and to reach absorption is difficult and only one in a hundred or a thousand can do it.Vsm. XII.8

And one must master first jhana before one can go on to strive for second jhana (let alone 4th jhana). It is an amazing skill and needs someone with enormous accumulations.

Also these days many choose the most difficult object - breath

.Visuddhimagga Viii
211: "Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is successful only in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any meditation subject other than this one gets more evident as he goes on giving it his attention. But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons are at home. It is no trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons.

[RobertK]

@Matthias-Lentrein

" When he has understood the round of kamma and the round of kamma result in this way, having discerned the mentality and materiality he abandons the three kind of doubts about past future and present death and rebirth, this is the full Understanding of the known".

And so on. Again and again Visuddhimagga repeats it in various ways.
Please read it.

vis. xix

[ITS OCCURANCE IS ALWAYS DUE TO CONDITIONS]
5. After discerning the material body’s conditions in this way, he again discerns
the mental body in the way beginning: “Due to eye and to visible object eye-
consciousness arises” (S II 72; M I 111). **When he has thus seen that the occurrence **
of mentality-materiality is due to conditions, then he sees that, as now, so in the
past too its occurrence was due to conditions, and in the future too its occurrence
will be due to conditions.
6. When he sees it in this way, all his uncertainty is abandoned, that is to say,
the five kinds of uncertainty about the past stated thus: “Was I in the past? Was
I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been
what, what was I in the past?” (M I 8), and also the five kinds of uncertainty
about the future stated thus: “Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future?
What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what,
what shall I be in the future?” (M I 8); and also the six kinds of uncertainty about
the present stated thus: “Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Whence will
this being have come? Whither will it be bound?” (M I 8).

In this section the Vis. is showing that by understanding the present moment the wise man understands that the past and future conditions are just the same. Not that he should literally see into the future or past.

[ekocare]

@Matthias-Lentrein

This modern shortcut when it comes to practice is like that : " let’s discern Paticca Samuppāda in present only, the knowledge of past and future is obtained by inference" this does not find support in the texts in any way. And it does not match the fundamentals of Buddha’ s Teachings found in Pāḷi Texts.

According to almost all orthodox scholars and Commentary experts other than the Paauk-influenced, what Visuddhimagga says is “an inference about past and future”.

Visuddhimagga tika explain it more clearly. It was written by Dhammapala thera who was also an Atthakatha-acariya.

Furthermore the Atthakatha of many other Suttas say the same thing.

Additionally the main causes of Rupa are considered “Avijja, tanha and upadana” (like mother) by the Visuddhimagga. Kamma is considered a cause like father. So how can one see Avijja-causality in past and future lives according to the Paauk method?

If one sees atleast a single past life it should be an Abhinna. How can it be a Vipassana?

@Matthias-Lentrein

Where these expectations come from?
Certainly not from the Pāli texts. …
As soon as a Jhāna attainer is not in Jhāna, because of ayonisomanasikāra he can experience defilements.

Those are general expectations/assumptions derived from the qualities of jhana, upacara and stories about jhanalabhis. Those are not strict rules but expectations (in most cases) derived from many facts and stories about jhanalabhis’daily life. As we think, at least most of the jhanalabhis should have a peaceful daily life.

As we inferred, when the jhanalabhi is not in jhana or upacara, he can not be a playful person in daily life, because he has to maintain the ability of re-entering the jhana. The kilesas arisen in him should not be gross but weak and subtle.

There are mentions and stories about non-arahant jhanalabhi monks who thought they were arahants, because they couldn’t identify any kilesa arisen in them.

When an Iddhi-labhi is traveling in the sky, if gross kilesas arisen by seeing some women on the ground, then will fall down to the earth. According to stories in the texts, he is not an Iddhi-labhi until he re-gain the capability of attaining iddhi. So it seems the jhanalabhi can’t give birth to gross kilesas without losing the jhana.

Furthermore Ven. Maggavihari said that an Iddhi-labhi is not in jhana while traveling in the sky because his five senses are active (sees the rupas like women …etc). So his general behaviour (daily life) seems to be as calm as “sky-traveling”.

[bksubhuti]

Wow… this was a big thread. There is too much to comment on.
I think @jansen has brought up a wrong point by saying that the texts don’t say this and it is not Theravāda and he was implying mula texts.

Theravāda surely includes the commentarial system and for sure ven Buddhaghosa and other texts too as mentioned above. As for memorized commentaries, I have a video of a tipitaka sayadaw who mentions and holds up all of the books he has memorized and many of them are commentaries and subcommentaries. My guess was it was easier to “just memorize” them instead of studying them. For sure it is a systematic way but not conceivable by mere regular beings as systematic and efficient. He memorized the dhpA stories and Anguttara when he was a samanera even though these are not part of the “tipitakadhara” testing system.

It was amazing. I think I told this story before… when I was surprised to find out this sayadaw knew all of the dhpA when I was teaching him English based on cakkhupālattheravatthu.

The vsm clearly states looking into the heart-base. The heart-base and bhavaṅga are interchangeable. At first ven Maggavihari was very against this… but now, he himself also interchanges these two terms. (it is called maturity in knowledge). Only recently in the past month did I bring his interchangeable usage and his past criticism to him… He smiled.