Can A Sotāpanna Attain Fruition Consciousness More Than Once?

61

Your quote is good, but only on the surface.

There are two types: those that habitually dwell and those that do not habitually dwell.
It never said (and it would), those that can attain and those that cannot.

These were special circumstances, and remember it is an arahant that was showing vitakka (almost impossible in normal circumstances).

Look at your last line (using Pitaka trans):

taṃ vitakkentoti ‘‘sāmaṇerassa senāsanaṃ natthi, araññañca sīhādīhi saparissayaṃ, kiṃ nu kho tassa bhavissatī’’ti taṃ vitakkento.
Thinking about him means thinking: “The sāmaṇera has no dwelling, and the forest is dangerous with lions and so on, what will become of him?”
evarūpoti ediso yathāvuttasāmaṇerasadiso khīṇāsavo.
Such a one means an arahant similar to the sāmaṇera mentioned.
ime dhammeti imasmiṃ sutte āgate sīlādidhamme.
These Dhammas refers to the Dhammas beginning with virtue (sīla) mentioned in this sutta.
āvajjitvāvāti attano parisuddhasīlatādiāvajjanahetu eva samāpajjituṃ sakkhissati.
By reflecting means he will be able to attain by merely reflecting on his own purity of virtue and so on.

This line here:

By reflecting means he will be able to attain by merely reflecting on his own purity of virtue and so on

It is easy once these very odd obstacles are removed for the arahant. Surely you agree that these are odd circumstances for an arahant. It is only based on his duty as a preceptor that he would have these kiriya thoughts circling in his mind. Once it stops, he merely needs to reflect. While in other situations, we can say the hindrances are temporarily suppressed in mundane jhāna, it was this odd situation which his attainment was temporarily suppressed.

Pa Auk and comments on Nibbana etc.
62

I always thought providing quotations was good. :folded_hands:

R

63

The quotation was provided. However, it was an example of an obscure point, and it did not explain definitively that ariyas are not able to bring up their object of concentration under normal circumstances. Do you think that arahants, even of dry insight, are filled with vitakka? It was a one-off point, which was recoverable. It was temporarily blocked due to the duties of a preceptor.

However, the quote I gave was definitive and directly said that all ariyas can attain their object.

I am not saying an ariya can attain Nibbāna concentration for hours on end. I am saying an ariya can attain based on his concentration level. I am perfectly happy to say that some dry-insight ariyas might be only able to attain very briefly (seconds), or 5 minutes for dry insight. But I think that they can do better than that, like an hour or two, etc. The thing is, they should be able to bring up the object of their knowledge any time they want. It is clearly said in several places. It is the standard of Theravāda.

Have you asked a learned monk? I think both you and @RobertK have not asked this question. Have I? Absolutely. How else did I ever learn this? And yes… I sent a message to an abhivamsa monk and got a confirmed yes from him to be sure during this whole process.

64

This is a bit off topic but an issue I see with affirming someone has attained based on asking them to perform fruition repeatedly is that what they are repeating could be a type of wrong release (micchāvimutti) that they are repeating or simply some state that they think is attainment.

The sotapanna has absolutely no doubt that he has attained, he has a profound level of wisdom that has eradicated self view and silabataparamsa (and doubt). The overestimator , or the deluded, may be super confident they too have attained - but this is attachment not wisdom. It gets complicated if they are told by some respected person ‘yes you have attained’, it might increase this wrong perpective.

Thus we rely on the Dhamma: we learn to be independent in the teaching and see what satipatthana really is. Then we won’t - IMHO- look to another to tell us what we know. Of course we do value discussion with the wise, that is one of the ways understanding grows.

Majjhima Nikaya 112 (Bhikkhu Bodhi translation)

Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu makes a declaration of final knowledge thus: ‘I understand: Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.’
3. "That bhikkhu’s words should neither be approved nor disapproved. Without approving or disapproving, a question should be put thus: '[..]

" How does the venerable one know, how does he see, regarding these five aggregates affected by clinging, so that through not clinging his mind is liberated from the taints?’

[..]How does the venerable one know, how does he see, regarding these six internal and external bases, so that through not clinging his mind is liberated from the taints?’

So I think it is by questioning and discussion that gradually the wise can be known. But even then we dont have supernormal powers like the ancients who can truly know the mind of others.

Aṅguttara Nikāya 4.192
20. Mahāvagga
Ṭhānasutta

“Bhikkhus, four facts [about people] can be known from four [other] facts. What four?

[…]

“By conversation their wisdom can be known, and this only after a long time, not casually; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; and by one who is wise, not by one who is unwise..

“Further it was said: ‘By conversation their wisdom can be known, and this only after a long time, not casually; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; and by one who is wise, not by one who is unwise.’ On account of what was this said?

“Here, bhikkhus, when conversing with someone, one comes to know: ‘Judging from the way this venerable one initiates, formulates, and poses a question, he is unwise, not wise. For what reason? This venerable one does not speak about matters that are deep, peaceful, sublime, beyond the sphere of reasoning, subtle, comprehensible to the wise. When this venerable one speaks on the Dhamma, he is not able to explain, teach, describe, establish, reveal, analyze, and explicate its meaning either briefly or in detail. This venerable one is unwise, not wise.

[[…]
“But in another case, when conversing with someone, one comes to know: ‘Judging from the way this venerable one initiates, formulates, and poses a question, he is wise, not unwise. For what reason? This venerable one speaks about matters that are deep, peaceful, sublime, beyond the sphere of reasoning, subtle, comprehensible to the wise. When this venerable one speaks on the Dhamma, he is able to explain, teach, describe, establish, reveal, analyze, and explicate its meaning both briefly and in detail. This venerable one is wise, not unwise.’ […]: ‘By conversation their wisdom can be known, and this only after a long time, not casually; by one who is attentive, not by one who is inattentive; and by one who is wise, not by one who is unwise.’

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65

Yes. It could be a problem.
The teacher is merely asking, “Can you repeat this?”
It is not a stamp of approval, and I have said this before. They often overload the person who says he has reached the state to see if he can be broken. They stress test him. He might not be able to attain while being overloaded, just like the story of the Arahant you pulled from the sub-commentary. But he should, within a reasonable amount of quiet time, be able to gain back his state, just like the Arahant would be able to do after learning his novice monk was okay after all.

It is not a stamp or confirmation. Rather, it is a sign—“You ain’t” if you can’t reproduce it. It is a ruling out of this or that process.

Overestimation is part of the path. Classical Theravāda insists there are two stages of udayabbaya-ñāṇa. The first stage is when the upakkilesa can and will arise (false enlightenment). He must deal with that and continue to push through to the second stage and then to the other knowledges.

So one needs to understand they are not there to make more progress. They need to systematically go through the Dhamma and knowledges. This is all classical Theravāda.
Repeatable is also Classical Theravāda… but yes… we want to be sure it is repeating the correct way. Repeatability is recognized as a skill. Surely an Ariya is skilled. They are one who knows the Path. The Path leads to the Attainment. Eventually out of saṃsāra.

66

Yes, the well-learned Venerable Yuttadhammo makes some very interesting comments about this, which I posted here:

R

67

Classical Theravāda is comprised of all the teachers and students who adhere to the Tipiṭaka and its Commentaries as authoritative. Within that group, there may be many different views and interpretations, but every body in that group still takes the Tipiṭaka and its Commentaries as fully authoritative. That is what ties them all together.

Students of Mahāsi will not always agree with Pa-Auk, and students of Pa-Auk might not always agree with Mahāsi. Students of Ajahn Naeb might disagree with Ajahn Sujin in certain areas of interpretation, and so on. Those are just a few examples. There are many different teachers within the Classical Theravāda fold who all have different interpretations of the same texts. That is natural and it will always be that way.

These groups should realize that they are always stronger together. The Dhamma faces many challenges now. Academic Buddhism is against all of us, for example. Not only has Academic Buddhism had a major influence among Westerners, but it is having a significant impact now in Asia as well. Its influence is growing among Thai Buddhists as well as Buddhists in many different countries, and it going to continue to.

It’s imperative that everyone in Classical Theravada respect each other. And also that we remain polite in our interactions, never insisting that only our teacher’s view defines what Classical Theravāda is, even as we politely disagree with each other. We can all put our differences aside and be polite to each other because first and foremost we are on the same team against those who are not Classical Theravāda—that is to say, those who purposefully reject the Tipiṭaka and its Commentaries.

You should not insist that others are not CT over minor doctrinal disagreements. You should also always speak to lay people with respect. The world is much bigger than just you and your interpretation of the Dhamma. We need to preserve the Three Baskets for the future. Our first mission is to make sure they are not eroded, while doing that we can also respectfully spread our own views. Is that something you can agree to?

R

68

Has anyone but me asked a learned scholar monk about this?

  • I have asked a real scholar monk and have a voice message on this.
  • I have stated this from three commentaries.
  • Your subcommentary example is a one-off view that does not definitively say this is the case. It only mentions a temporary inability to attain.
  • I have stated the explanation synthesized by Ven. Bodhi. This is not his opinion; it is an explanation probably based on the commentary excerpts I have given. He is not a pa-auk or Mahasi monk. He would be considered an expert on abhidhamma through his position through the guidance of Sayadaw U Silananda. (check the credits in his book). Sayadaw U Silananda is a scholar monk and a mahasi monk. One of the great scholars of our time.

A one-off view is becoming mainstream “in English,” just like EBT is “mainstream in English.” I told this to another monk in Sri Lanka at breakfast (not Pa-Auk), and he also agrees this is standard Theravāda. Do you want me to ask Ven. Maggavihari? Will that settle it? It is very clear. I can also email a Tipiṭakadhara friend of mine. Who have you asked? Are you sure that Mahasi believes it does not need a repeatable condition? Have you seen this in writing? It is standard Theravāda.

69

In the bulletins it notes that:

14. Although an arahat is sukkha vipassaka, who has attained without having
developed jhåna, after his enlightenment he may have the inclination to
jhåna, and in that case he can enter fruition-attainment [phala-samapatti]. Then he is
³abiding in bliss here now.²

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70

It seems some do not agree with some parts of the Ti-Pitaka(s). These people cannot attain anything, but the opposite, for rejecting the Dhamma or having doubt over it, despite accepting parts of it. People like these are acting as a dividing/splitting the community. So, that is not good for them. Whether they are sincere or not, they should investigate properly and accept the entirety of the Dhamma.

A bhikkhu practiced all lifelong during Buddha Kassapa dispensation, but he accidentally cut a leaf and became doubtful about his sila. And this doubt pulled him towards lower rebirth instead of rebirth in the six deva bhumi(s). Naga(s) are animals, so he was unable to attain liberation when he met the Gotama Buddha. He must wait until the next rebirth as a human or deva.

Once there was a naga king by the name of Erakapatta. In one of his past existences during the time of Kassapa Buddha he had been a bhikkhu for a long time. Through worry (kukkucca) over a minor offence he had committed during that time, he was reborn as a naga. [Sariputta | Dhammapada | The Story of Erakapatta the Naga King]

“Oh, impure is my sila!” he lamented. At that moment, he died and was reborn as a dragon king by the name of Erakapatta Naga Raja. As soon as he saw his new body, he was again filled with remorse. “After all those years of meditation I am now reborn in a rootless frog-eating species. O, tragedy of tragedies!” [Dying to Live: 68 DYING TO LIVE: The Role of Kamma in Dying and Rebirt]

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71

dear Venerable

thanks for looking up this section on the Vism. I does seem to show what you suggest. Just a few points:

having made a determination of time, noble ones attain fruition-attainment at whatever moment they wish,

But still I have a few doubts about this with regard to a sotapanna who has no experience of mundane jhana.

Later in the same section it says (I use Nanamoli translation):

xxxiii

  1. Now, the process of attaining it is as follows. A noble disciple who seeks the
    attainment of fruition should go into solitary retreat. He should see formations
    with insight according to rise and fall and so on. When that insight has
    progressed [as far as conformity], then comes change-of-lineage knowledge
  2. […]

This, firstly, is how attaining comes about. [701]
12. (vi) It is made to last in three ways, because of the words: “Friend, there are
three conditions for the persistence of the signless mind-deliverance: they are
the non-bringing to mind of all signs, the bringing to mind of the signless
element, and the prior volition” (M I 296–97). Herein, the prior volition is the
predetermining of the time before attaining;6 for it is by determining it thus, “I
shall emerge at such a time,” that it lasts until that time comes. This is how it is
made to last.

Thus for the one who can has such skill can detemine 1 hour or 2 hours or one day or more to remain in phala-samapatti. It is impressive.

We know myriads of laypeople attained while listening to Buddha but did they all have such skill.

Vinayapiṭaka Mahāvagga

When the Buddha knew that their minds were ready, supple, without hindrances, joyful, and confident, he revealed the teaching unique to the Buddhas:
suffering, its origin, its end, and the path.
And just as a clean and stainless cloth absorbs dye properly,
so too, while they were sitting right there, one hundred and ten thousand of those brahmin householders headed by Bimbisāra experienced the stainless vision of the Truth:
“Anything that has a beginning has an end.”

72

The problem with calling it jhāna is there is a huge confusion.
It is correct to prefix it “mundane jhāna”; it shows you are recognizing the difference between mundane and supramundane. But you are confusing the complexity of attaining. One is paramattha and another is paññatti. For the ariya, the paramattha object is far easier, especially if dry insight.

I have said that the length of time is determined by the development of the ariya yogi.
But they should be able to arise the “signless” object.

I have sent out an SOS to Ven. Maggavihāri. Let’s push this aside until I can corner him and get a recording of him. He pops into our monastery once or twice a month. I’m sure he knows this and talks extensively on this. We are very lucky to have him in this lifetime to explain things to us. I’m lucky to be able to ask him to give answers when we are deadlocked.

73

Yeah, how to understand that text correctly and appropriately? We can learn from some venerable theras, especially Venerable Ananda, when he wished to attain the fruition, he was already matured enough for that:

When the date set for the council came closer, Anuruddha suggested that his brother Ananda should only be admitted if he had overcome the last taints and had become an arahant. He knew the power of such an incentive. When Ananda heard this, he decided to employ every bit of strength and ability he possessed to realize Nibbana. He practiced the four foundations of mindfulness, a way which came most natural to him according to his tendencies. In the early hours of the morning, when he wanted to rest after his exertion, he knew without a doubt the he had attained release from all passions. The next day the council began. A place had been kept for him. Ananda appeared through the air through supernatural power and sat down at his place. When Anuruddha and Kassapa became aware that he had become an arahant, they expressed their brotherly joy with him and opened the council, which took place during the rains retreat. Other monks could not come to Rajagaha at this time. […]

When Ananda reached one hundred and twenty years, he felt that his death was near. He went from Rajagaha on a journey to Vesali, just as his master had done. When the king of Magadha and the princes of Vesali heard that Ananda would soon die, they hurried to him from both directions to bid him farewell. In order to do justice to both sides, Ananda chose a way to die in keeping with his gentle nature: he raised himself into the air through his supernormal powers and let his body be consumed by the fire element. The relics were divided and stupas erected. [Ananda: The Guardian of the Dhamma]

The path to become a sotapanna:

Due to his past merits, while hearing the sermon, the knowledge of impermanence arose within him and he attained the first stage of enlightenment (sotāpanna). Extremely gladdened, he invited the Buddha for a meal the next day. [Anathapindika | Vipassana Research Institute]

  1. The one realising the Path of Stream Entry (sotapatti-magga)

  2. The one realising the Fruition of Stream Entry (sotapatti-phala)

[…]

  1. Association with people of integrity (kalyana mittata)

  2. Hearing the true dhamma or right doctrine (saddhamma savana)

  3. Appropriate or wise attention (yoniso manasikara)

  4. Practice in accordance with the dhamma (dhmmanudhamma–patipada)

    [Stream Enterer (sotapanna) in Theravada Buddhism – drarisworld]

74

:folded_hands: Yes it will be very good to get his input.

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75

These people harm the Sāsana.

R

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76

Venerable Maggavihari replied:
After clarification, I edited one spelling mistake.
@RobertK and I agreed to close the topic on this note since it settles it.

[9/22, 07:49] Maggavihari Bhiikhu: attainment of phala samāpatti and recalling Nibbāna are two things.
In order to attain the Phala samāpatti, the person need the meditative skill. Just recalling what one has seen is different.
[9/22, 07:50] Maggavihari Bhiikhu: Even though all ariyas don’t have the ability to attain the Phala samāpatti whenever they can, they can recall that object of Nibbāna.
[9/22, 08:06] Bhante Subhuti: recall.. is bring up to mind the real nibbana object?
[9/22, 08:06] Bhante Subhuti: or a memory of it.
[9/22, 08:16] Maggavihari Bhiikhu: yes bhante, Real Nibbāna.
recalls the Nibbāna which he saw. It is not a past object. It is the actual Nibbāna. But he can recall it mind at any time.
For example, If I recall the jivhāviññāṇa which I had for today’s breakfast, it is a past object since it has all ready passed away.
But when an Ariya person recalls Nibbāna which he saw few months ago, it is the same Nibbāna which is existing now. Since Nibbāna never passes away, it is the same Nibbāna which he saw few months ago.
[9/22, 08:18] Maggavihari Bhiikhu: If you recall past jivhāviññāṇa it is not existing at the present moment. So it is a past object. You can say it is not real, since it is not exiting at the moment.
But when you recall Nibbāna which you saw, it is existing at this moment as well. So it is a real object. We cannot say it is present (paccuppanna) since it never arose. But is it is existing at the moment.
[9/22, 08:22] Bhante Subhuti: Okay.. that is good. And that will settle the issue on both sides of jhāna or not as well as the issue of being able to "get nibbana” any time they wish.
I had said, “I’m not sure about how long they can sustain it with 5 mastery, but they can get nibbāna concentration”

What is recollection called then?
My idea was that it was still technically a samāpatti sammapatti
[9/22, 08:28] Maggavihari Bhiikhu: rather than saying “getting Nibbāna" I would use the word “cognize Nibbāna”
There are few types of Nibbāna cognition

  1. Cognizing Nibbāna with Gotrabhū citta and Vodāna Citta
  2. ⁠Cognizing Nibbāna with Magga citta
  3. ⁠Cognizing Nibbāna with Phala citta, immediately after Magga
  4. ⁠Cognizing Nibbāna in Phala samāpatti
  5. ⁠Cognizing Nibbāna in Paccavekkhaṇa citta (it is a close observation)
  6. ⁠Just recalling the Nibbāna one saw perviously

The 1, 5 and 6 are done with Kāmāvacara cittas. No 1, is a special case.
Difference between 5 and 6 are, 5 is a close observation while 6 is a casual recalling

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