Bhante Subhuti wrote:
The answer is in the vsm pāḷi. One can attain this state any time he wishes and it will never go away because that is what Ariya attainments are about. They are the full security that will not go away.
So the Phala is attained. There is no losing of it and no need to re-attain it.
But it is more like reviewing the fact that such Phala is attained (something to do with phalacittas).
This is referring to the phalasamāpatti attainment which is similar to a jhāna taking nibbāna as the object of consciousness. The meditation upon the Signless.
The “wisdom of Sotāpanna” and the “phala samapatti of Sotāpanna” are different.
“Phala samapatti of Sotāpanna” considered similar to a Jhāna but taking Nibbāna as the object of consciousness.
First one is a seeing Nibbāna by wisdom and the second one is a seeing Nibbāna by mind.
According to the classical texts, one attain the stable and irreversible “wisdom of Sotāpanna” when he first time attains “phala samapatti of Sotāpanna”. Then he gets down from the “phala samapatti of Sotāpanna” but never from the “wisdom of Sotāpanna”.
The “wisdom of Sotāpanna” never falls down but the “Phala samapatti of Sotāpanna” falls down. He have to re-attain it if he needs peace.
Bhante. Do you know if the phala samāpatti will always be the same level from the time he attained magga phala?
Suppose he attained sotapatti magga and phala with first jhāna. Can he later enter phala samāpatti with the second, third or fourth?
Definitely it is almost always to propose their own version of jhāna vipassanā magga phala that some nowadays some teachers reject Abhidhamma and commentaries.
Like the Ajhan in Thailand who pretend to be Arahant, Mahamewuna from Srilanka provides their own satipatthāna method, mahāsi method from Burma and so on…
Some teachers say " no need to have a light to attain jhāna, not said in the suttas"… So that they can pretend to be jhāna attainer and meditation master.
It is a great lost for their followers.
Welcome to the community Matthias!
Nice to see the people who respect Classical texts.
While many classical scholars disagree with the meditation methods you have mentioned, they disagree with the ‘light of wisdom’ of Pa-auk method as well.
They believe the mistakes of the methods happened due to their proportion of deviation from the texts.
I heard they respect Pa-auk in terms of Pa-auk’s prevalent respect towards classical texts, vinaya and samadhi, but they don’t accept the ‘light of wisdom’ and ‘seeing past lives by vipassana’ done by Pa-auk, saying that it is also out of the book.
You can see one of their arguements here: Impermanence of rupa - #13 by ekocare
I have never heard of proper scholars rejecting that light is in jhāna, or nimitta. There is confusion or ambiguity about light and nimitta. They are different. Light is not nimitta, but the nimitta will be bright. It is said in the vsm that it is bright and pure under the earth kasiṇa paṭibhāga section. So it is better to say that bright visual mental object of the paṭibhāga nimitta. I have never heard any proper Theravādin scholars dispute this. It is very clear in the vsm. Those who dispute this would not be Classical believers. However, they might be adjusting the texts to match the attainment.
About the knowledge that never goes away. I have heard it is like seeing the Earth from outer space. Once you see it from that viewpoint, nobody can change your mind that the earth is not round.
I would imagine the jhāna-like-nibbāna attainment never declines. It would depend on what his level of attainment was when he attained it. I would also guess it would improve too if he wanted. This is really an answer left up to the teacher who is skilled in these issues. I only reported what the vsm says.
It’s different from Arahatta Phala though. Only arahats can enter the state of phala samapatthi, in which they are permitted to dwell up to 15 days. Sotapanna do not have this kind of ability to dwell in nibbana. Sotapanna abandon ‘sakkaya ditthi’, but have not abandoned kilesa (lobha, dosa, moha). Sotapanna’s ability is not to dwell in kilesa for lengthy time, like laypeople do. Sotapanna can let go of kilesa (lobha, dosa) very fast. That is to say a sotapanna does not keep anger for long.
I say that based on reading and listening.
I think you are talking about nirodhasamāpatti which is accessible to arahants and anāgāmīs which are able to sustain for 7 days. This is a different attainment from phalasamāpatti for their respective level.
Thanks, Bante, for the reply.
Phala Samapatti is the moment of reaching nibbana, and nirodhasamāpatti is the moment of dwelling in nibbana. The two are different but also kind of the same I think. When a monk reaches Phala Samapatti (phalasamapatti), he knows he has reached it and done with his duty. But he is aware of the body and mind. During nirodhasammapatti, his consciousness and feeling are in cessation, at peace, so he’s not aware of the environment (the body and mind), which is the state he momentarily experienced during his reaching of nibbana.
That’s how I understand.
Light is produced by samadhi when its strength reaches certain point. It is similar/same to aura. Radiance might be a better word. Mahasi Sayadaw and other prominent monks mentioned about it. But not everyone achieving high level of samadhi experienced it. The-inn-gu Sayadaw is an example. He mentioned to achieve strong samadhi, but never the word jhanna. He started meditation after learning from a book: Biography of Sun Lun Gu Sayadaw - get a pdf file.
Sun Lun Gu Sayadaw was an ordinary farmer. But later he developed phobia of death (Thanatophobia?). His name was U Kawi (Oo Kawi). He received meditation instruction from a lay devotee of Dhamma during a traditional event in which a household invites the monks and laypeople for alms and food. U Kawi and his family were the donor.
U Kawi’s focused samatha. He explained he saw a ball of light appeared in front of him and it rosed. He kept looking at it as it rose higher and higher. He explained he saw the celestial beings. And the light moved downward and he was got back to where he was sitting/meditating. Later he developed stronger samadhi and was able to see through the skin and see the organs. He was able to know the type of disease and the day of death when he looked at someone. And he told them accordingly and people became to fear of him. With his strong samadhi, he was able to see through earth too and saw the beings in hell. He described them as moving like maggots.
The-inn-gu Sayadaw mentioned about jhanna as unachievable because of meat-eating, making the body very heavy to attain jhanna - the psychic power to take flight. He only mentioned about developing strong samadhi.
Moegoke Sayadaw was one who did not teach in favour of developing jhanna. He described it as unsuitable for everyone. He explained about samadhi, which can be developed before, during/with or after vipassana. That is to say there are meditation methods to develop samadhi before, during/with or after practicing vipassana.
One does not need jhanna to attain sotapanna fruition (to abandon sakkaya ditthi or to understand anicca and/or anatta or the nature of the body and mind - upadanakkhanda). But one needs strong samadhi during listening/reading Dhamma (also during meditation).
Nirodhasamāpatti is only attainable by anāgāmi. Phalasamāpatti is the concentration with nibbāna as object. They are vastly different. Please read the difference… maybe even wikipedia has info on these.
As for the other teachers and methods. The issue was jhāna and the light being disputed by scholars. You are mentioning those who created methods. I think you need to mention scholars and tell me where jhāna does not have light. Pa-Auk is the only method that rightly matches the vsm the closest. There is no debate about that that I know of. If you want to listen to anonymous “mistakes” guys, that is your wish. Such doctrinal issues reguarding the mistakes guy have been addressed by “friends of sassana” youtube channel, but they are poorly produced media channels.
You should also verify the vinaya of such teachers. I’ll give you a hint. They didn’t make my list and I would have been happy to add them. Please directly ask with monks who live there, been there or inquire directly with the abbots about their own vinaya practice (“Do you accept money directly or by envelopes?”). Let me know it is verified and how you verified it, and I will add them to my list. 
There are two branches of Theravada Sasana in Myanmar: Sudhamma and Shwe Kyin (Shwekyin). Sudhamma allows monks to handle money and it also allows scholar-monks eat dinner/supper. Shwekyin does not. The two have little argument. There are other branches of Theravada too.
The monks in my previous reply were from Shwekyin Sasana. Pa-Auk Sayadaw is also from Shwekyin.
I add some information on this from posts by Nina van Gorkom. Apparently the one who attains by means of dry insight is not able to keep reentering fruition, while the one who had mastery of jhana when initially attaining can.
https://groups.io/g/dsg/message/17896
Foundation Bulletin, translated from Thai.
Dhamma Issues, Ch 2, Fruition-attainment, no 1
Fruition Attainment, Phala-samåpatti
Issue of analysis: Can the ariyan who has not attained jhåna enter fruition
attainment, phala-samåpatti?
The conclusion regarding the issue of analysis: The ariyan who has not
attained [mundane] jhåna is not able to enter fruition attainment [phala-samåpatti] .
The sources which support the conclusion of this issue:
The sources which explain the reasons for this conclusion:
³Lord, the Ariyan disciple who has won the fruit (ågato phalo), grasped the
message (viññåta-såsano), what life lives he in abundance ?²
(2
³Mahånåma, the Ariyan disciple who has won the fruit, grasped the message,
lives this life in abundance:
The Ariyan disciple, Mahånåma, is ever minding the Tathågata: ŒHe is the
Exalted One, arahant, fully enlightened, perfected in knowledge and way of
life, one well-gone, a knower of the worlds, none higher, a tamer of tamable
men, a teacher, the awake among devas and men, the Exalted One!¹ Mahånåma,
what time the Ariyan disiple minds the Tathågata, his heart is never
overwhelmed by passion, never overwhelmed by hatred, never overwhelmed by
infatuation; then, verily, is the way of his heart made straight because of
the Tathågata. And with his heart¹s ways straightened, Mahånåma, the Ariyan
disciple becomes zealous of the goal, zealous of Dhamma, wins the joy that
is linked to Dhamma (3 ; and of his joy zest (píti) is born; when his mind
is rapt in zest, his whole being becomes calm; calm in being, he experiences
ease; and of him that dwells at ease the heart is composed.
Mahånåma, of this Ariyan disciple it is said: Among uneven folk he lives
evenly; among troubled folk he lives untroubled; with the ear for Dhamma
won, he makes become the ever minding of the Buddha…²(4
Thus we see that the abiding (vihåra dhammas) of the ariyan disciple without
jhåna-attainment are the six Recollections, not fruition attainment.
Footnotes
Fruition attainment, phala-samåpatti, has been explained in the
³Visuddhimagga², Ch XXIII, Description of the Benefits in Developing
Understanding (explaining who can enter fruition attainment and who cannot).
The text (Vis. XXIII, 6,7) stating: ³All ariyans can enter
fruition-attainment² can be misunderstood when we do not know the context.
*People may erroneously think that all ariyans can.
https://groups.io/g/dsg/message/17959
Dhamma Issues, Fruition Attainment 2
2: The Visuddhimagga, Ch XXIII, Description of the Benefits in Developing
Understanding (explaining who can enter fruition attainment and who cannot)
states: ³All ariyans can enter fruition-attainment². This is a conclusion
which refutes an argument of some teachers who had wrong view. They stated
that the sotåpanna (streamwinner) and the sakadågåmí (once-returner) are not
able to enter fruition-attainment, and that only the anågåmí (non-returner)
and the arahat could enter fruition-attainment. They argued that only the
anågåmí and the arahat could reach accomplishment in samådhi
(concentration). However, even the ordinary person (who is not an ariyan)
may reach accomplishment in samådhi, so that he may enter mundane
jhåna-attainment, jhåna-samåpatti (5. Thus, all ariyans, namely, the
sotåpanna, the sakadågåmí, the anågåmí and the arahat can enter
fruition-attainment, provided they are able to attain jhåna. [however those ariyans who cannot attain mundane jhana also cannot reenter fruition attainment.]
The Paramatthadípaní, Commentary to the Udåna, Khuddaka Nikåya, in the
Commentary to Ch 1, Enlightenment explains the term vimutti sukha, the
enjoyment of the happiness of freedom of the Buddha after his enlightenment.
(6
We read in the ³Middle Length Sayings² (I, 44), ³The Lesser Discourse of the
Miscellany² (Cúlavadallasutta) that the nun Dhammadinnå spoke with the
layfollower Visåkha about the abiding in fruition-attainment, explaining
cetovimutti, deliverance of mind (7. Thus, only the ariyan with
jhåna-attainment can enter fruition-attainment.
Footnotes:
5. Evenso, all ariyans who have accumulated the inclination to and the skill
in the development of samatha, can attain jhåna.
6. See the Translation by P. Masefield, p. 58-62, ³But in the present case
it is the Lord¹s liberation in terms of fruition that has nibbåna as its
object that is implied, for which reason ³Experiencing the bliss of
liberation (vimuttisukhapaìisaÿvedí) means: (he) was seated experiencing the
bliss of liberation, the bliss associated with fruition-attainment²…
The Buddha had attained all stages of rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna.
7. Ceto-vimutti refers to a person who has developed insight and samatha to
the degree of jhåna. Dhammadinnå explains about the attainment of cessation
of perception and feeling, which can be reached only by a person with jhåna
attainment.
https://groups.io/g/dsg/message/18013
Dhamma Issues, 2, Fruition Attainment, no 3.
translated by nina van Gorkom
³ Panítådhimutta, they are intent upon fruition attainment. (panítå means:
excellent, superior, what does not cause agitation and leads to predominance
(8; adhimutta means: to be intent upon, inclined to). The inclination and
disposition to fruition-attainment is called paùítådhimutta. It is the
inclination to fruition-attainment which is subtle and refined.
Paùítådhimutta is here actually the prerequisite 9 for paññå which is intent
upon fruition-attainment.²
At another part we read, ³ In the explanation of the first jhåna etc., the
Commentator assists in explaining in the same way the term panítådhimutta.²
In another part in the Commentary, in the explanation of ³Understanding of
Peaceful Abiding², arana vihåra ñåna, we read about the arahat entering into
fruition-attainment:
²With the words pathamam jhånam, the first jhåna, he speaks about the
attainment of jhåna (jhåna samåpatti) which is the object of vipassanå of
someone wanting to enter fruition-attainment of the stage of the arahat.²
Even the arahat who does not have the hindrances, when he wants to enter
fruition-attainment, he must have calm of citta of the degree of jhåna, from
the first stage of jhåna onwards, and this is arana vihåra, peaceful
abiding. We read:
³The meaning of the words Œpathamena jhånena nívarane harati ti, arana
vihåro¹, is as follows: it is called arana vihåra, peaceful abiding, because
it removes the hindrances by the first jhåna. It is explained that the first
jhåna is called peaceful abiding because the factors which constitute the
first jhåna remove the hindrances (nívarane harati). The other words of the
text also explain this in the same way. One should know that the first jhåna
has been referred to as removing the hindrances because the first jhåna is
opposed to the hindrances and this is said also with regard to the arahat
who does not have them anymore.²
We read further on: ²…Jhåna attainment which is the foundation for
vipassanå of fruition attainment². This clearly shows that in order to enter
fruition-attainment one must be able to attain jhåna.
footnotes:
nina van gorkom
12/30/02 #18072
Dhamma Issues, 2, fruition-attainment, no. 4
The Commentary (of the Path of Discrimination) to the Chapter on ³Attainment
of Cessation² (Nirodha Samåpatti, Ch XXXIV) explains three classifications
of insight knowledge, vipassanå ñåna:
³There are three kinds of insight knowledge:
insight as comprehension of formations (sankhåra parigganhanaka vipassanå 9)
insight as fruition-attainment, phala-samåpatti vipassanå
insight as cessation-attainment, nirodha-samåpatti vipassanå 10
These three kinds of vipassanå are explained as different:
insight as comprehension of formations is paññå which understands
conditioned dhammas, sankhåra dhammas, that is, nåma dhamma and rúpa dhamma;
insight as fruition-attainment and insight as cessation attainment are
degrees of insight knowledge which have as their aim to enter
fruition-attainment and progressively cessation-attainment. For the latter
two attainments it is necessary to be able to attain jhåna which is in
conformity with those attainments.²
footnotes:
Corrections and additions to Issue 2, no1:end of footnote 4: peaceful
abiding, arana vihara, which can lead to fruition-attainment.
Add to footnote 8 (of no 3): We read in the same section of the ³Path of
Discrimination², § 448: ³The first jhåna is an abiding without conflict…²
and so on with all the stages of jhåna.
Old footnote 9 is erased.
nina van gorkom
01/02/03 #18208
Dhamma Issues, 2, fruition-attainment, no. 5
All arahats abide by nature in the following three kinds of vipassanå,
insight knowledge: the void abiding (suññata vihåra), the signless abiding
(animitta vihåra) and the desireless abiding (appanihita vihåra)12. In the
Commentary to the ³Path of Discrimination², to Chapter IX, Equanimity about
Formations (sankhårupekkhåñåna), we read:
³With regard to the abiding in the three kinds of insight by the arahats
who wish to abide in vipassanå, without fruition-attainment: they see the
clinging to oneself as a danger, and they are inclined to the void abiding
(suññatå vihåra, voidness of self); they see the decline(of conditioned
dhammas) by equanimity about formations under the aspect of the void
abiding. They see as a danger the characteristics of conditioned realities
(sankhåranimitta), and they are inclined to the signless abiding (animitta
vihåra); they see the decline (of conditioned dhammas) by equanimity about
formations under the aspect of the signless abiding. They see as a danger
the steadfastness of clinging, and they are inclined to the desireless
abiding (appanihita vihåra); they see the decline (of conditioned dhammas)
by equanimity about formations under the aspect of the desireless abiding.
With regard to the arahats who are sukkhavipassaka, with ³dry² insight
(insight alone), they have attained arahatship with lokuttara cittas without
jhåna factors of the different stages of jhåna, but they have calm of citta
since defilements have been completely eradicated. If they have accumulated
the inclination to calm of the degree of jhånacitta, then they are able to
enter fruition-attainment, which is ³abiding in bliss here now²
(ditthadhamma sukhavihåra [13 ).
With respect to this, we read in the Subcommentary (Tíka) to the Vinaya, the
Såratthadípaní, in the section ³Through wisdom (vijjå)²:
³As to the words stating the benefit of citta which has a single object,
thus, the benefit of citta with samådhi, concentration, these have been
explained as follows: the benefit of ³abiding in bliss here now²
(ditthadhamma sukhavihåra). The abiding in bliss (sukha) here now, the
commentator describes this with the leading words that the citta has a
single object and that the citta having a single object has that benefit.
This refers to the arahat who has dry insight (sukkha vipassaka).²[14
Footnotes:
13. Dittha dhamma: dhammas which are seen (dittha), namely, this world, or
³here now². ³Abiding in bliss, here now², dittha dhamma sukha vihåra, has
different meanings in different contexts. Here it refers to the abiding in
the bliss of fruition-attainment.
14. Although an arahat is sukkha vipassaka, who has attained without having
developed jhåna, after his enlightenment he may have the inclination to
jhåna, and in that case he can enter fruition-attainment. Then he is
³abiding in bliss here now.²
Dear Bhante and Dhamma001,
This issue is directly addressed in Atthakatha.
Khuddakanikāya (aṭṭhakathā) » Udāna-aṭṭhakathā » Bodhivaggo
Keci pana “sotāpannasakadāgāmino phalasamāpattiṃ na samāpajjanti, uparimā dveyeva samāpajjanti samādhismiṃ paripūrakāribhāvato”ti vadanti. Taṃ akāraṇaṃ puthujjanassāpi attanā paṭiladdhalokiyasamādhisamāpajjanato. Kiṃ vā ettha kāraṇacintāya? Vuttañhetaṃ paṭisambhidāyaṃ “Katamā dasa saṅkhārupekkhā vipassanāvasena uppajjanti (paṭi· ma· 1.57), katame dasa gotrabhudhammā vipassanāvasena uppajjantī”ti (paṭi· ma· 1.60) imesaṃ pañhānaṃ vissajjane sotāpattiphalasamāpattatthāya sakadāgāmiphalasamāpattatthāyāti tesampi ariyānaṃ phalasamāpattisamāpajjanaṃ vuttaṃ. Tasmā sabbepi ariyā yathāsakaṃ phalaṃ samāpajjantīti niṭṭhamettha gantabbaṃ.Translation in brief:
Some say that “sotapannas and sakadagamis do not attain Phalasamapatti, only the upper two attain because they are completed in Samadhi.”
It is wrong. …
Therefore it should be concluded that all the Ariyas attain Phalasamapatti according to their capabilities.
Also add some more information.
Dhammapada Verse 178
Anathapindikaputtakala Vatthu
The Buddha gave him a short stanza to learn by heart; at the same time he willed that the youth would not be able to memorize it. Thus, the youth had to repeat a single stanza many times, but because he had to repeat it so many times, in the end, he came to perceive the full meaning of the Dhamma and attained Sotapatti Fruition.
Dhammapada Verse 18
Sumanadevi Vatthu
At the house of Anathapindika, the supervision was done, first by the eldest daughter, next by the second daughter and finally by Sumanadevi, the youngest daughter. The two elder sisters attained Sotapatti Fruition by listening to the Dhamma, while serving food to the bhikkhus. Sumanadevi did even better and she attained Sakadagami Fruition.
Later, Sumanadevi fell ill and on her death-bed she asked for her father. Her father came, and she addressed her father as “younger brother” (Kanittha bhatika) and passed away soon after.
Dhammapada Verse 124
Kukkutamittanesada Vatthu
After putting away their bows and arrows, they paid obeisance to the Buddha and the Buddha expounded the Dhamma to them. In the end, the hunter, his seven sons and seven daughters-in-law, all fifteen of them, attained Sotapatti Fruition.
Then the Buddha returned to the monastery and told Thera Ananda and other bhikkhus about the hunter Kukkutamitta and his family attaining Sotapatti Fruition in the early part of the morning. The bhikkhus then asked the Buddha, “Venerable Sir, is the wife of the hunter who is a sotapanna, also not guilty of taking life, if she has been getting things like nets, bows and arrows for her husband when he goes out hunting?” To this question the Buddha answered, “Bhikkhus, the sotapannas do not kill, they do not wish others to get killed. The wife of the hunter was only obeying her husband in getting things for him. Just as the hand that has no wound is not affected by poison, so also, because she has no intention to do evil she is not doing any evil.”
Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:
Verse 124: If there is no wound on the hand, one may handle poison; poison does not affect one who has no wound; there can be no evil for one who has no evil intention.
Dhammapada Verse 194
Sambahulabhikkhu Vatthu
Verse 194: Happy is the arising of a Buddha; happy is the exposition of the Ariya Dhamma; happy is the harmony amongst the Samgha; happy is the practice of those in harmony.
At the end of the discourse the five hundred bhikkhus attained arahatship.
Dhammapada Verse 421
Dhammadinna Theri Vatthu
Verse 421: Him I call a brahmana, who does not cling to the past, future and present khandha aggregates and who is free from moral defilements and attachment.
Visakha, hearing that Dhammadinna had returned, went to see her and asked her some questions. When he asked her about the first three maggas she answered him; but when he asked her questions on the arahatta magga and phala she said, “O lay-disciple! This matter is out of your depth; if you want, you may go and ask the Buddha.” When Visakha asked the Buddha, the Buddha said, “Dhammadinna has already answered your question. If you ask me I shall have to give the same answer.” Saying this the Buddha confirmed the fact that Dhammadinna had attained arahatship.
Dhammapada Verse 25
Culapanthaka Vatthu
Mahapanthaka, who was then in charge of assigning the bhikkhus to meal invitations, left out Culapanthaka from the list. When Culapanthaka learnt about this he felt very much frustrated and decided that he would return to the life of a householder. Knowing his intention, the Buddha took him along and made him sit in front of the Gandhakuti hall. He then gave a clean piece of cloth to Culapanthaka and told him to sit there facing east and rub the piece of cloth. At the same time he was to repeat the word “Rajoharanam”, which means “taking on impurity.” The Buddha then went to the residence of Jivaka, accompanied by the bhikkhus.
Meanwhile, Culapanthaka went on rubbing the piece of cloth, all the time muttering the word “Rajoharanam”. Very soon, the cloth became soiled. Seeing this change in the condition of the cloth, Culapanthaka came to realize the impermanent nature of all conditioned things. From the house of Jivaka, the Buddha through supernormal power learnt about the progress of Culapanthaka. He sent forth his radiance so that (to Culapanthaka) the Buddha appeared to be sitting in front of him, saying:
“It is not the piece of cloth alone that is made dirty by the dust; within oneself also there exist the dust of passion (raga), the dust of ill will (dosa), and the dust of ignorance (moha), i.e., the ignorance of the Four Noble Truths. Only by removing these could one achieve one’s goal and attain arahatship”. Culapanthaka got the message and kept on meditating and in a short while attained arahatship, together with Analytical Insight. Thus, Culapanthaka ceased to be a dullard.
I got help from google to find these stories.