Becoming Faith follower or Dhamma follower

probably this is not a matter of choosing. In these cases we can assume the faith should be so strong in order some Dhamma teaching notions can appear integrated like happens when we think in the consequences after arising of panna.

I understand that before the stream entry, the faith is an ingredient always existing in different degrees in all the followers. And in some cases this can become the main catalyzer. At all, Faith is another way of knowledge able to surpass delusion precisely by denying it. Conviction and discernment are not so different at all.

I ignore the details about how panna and faith are related at those moments, it would be interesting to know from an Abhidhamma analysis.

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Lets see what the Buddha said about Dhammanusarī, Dhamma follower, and Saddhānusarī, faith follower:

“Katamo ca puggalo dhammānusārī? Yassa puggalassa sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipannassa paññindriyaṃ adhimattaṃ hoti, paññāvāhiṃ paññāpubbaṅgamaṃ ariyamaggaṃ bhāveti. Ayaṃ vuccati puggalo dhammānusārī. Sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanno puggalo dhammānusārī, phale ṭhito diṭṭhippatto.”

“Who is a person Dhamma follower? Any person who
practising for the realisation of the fruit of stream entry, whose wisdom faculty is in excess, who is lead by wisdom and for whose wisdom is the precursor, develops the Noble path. Such person is called Dhamma follower. The person practicing for the fruit of stream entry is Dhamma follower, standing in the fruit he is View -attainer.”

“katamo ca puggalo saddhānusārī? yassa puggalassa sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipannassa saddhindriyaṃ adhimattaṃ hoti, saddhāvāhiṃ saddhāpubbaṅgamaṃ ariyamaggaṃ bhāveti. ayaṃ vuccati puggalo saddhānusārī. sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanno puggalo saddhānusārī, phale ṭhito saddhāvimuttoti.”

“Who is a person Faith- follower? Any person who
practising for the realisation of the fruit of stream entry, whose faith faculty is in excess, who is lead by faith and for whom faith is the precursor, develops the Noble path. Such person is called Faith follower. The person practising for the fruit of stream entry is Faith follower, standing in the fruit he is liberated by faith.”
Ab. Pp. 7

The definition of Dhamma follower or Faith follower is given to individuals at the time of the Noble path.
They will be called Dhamma follower or Faith follower depending their dominant faculty at the time of the path.
Before that, for someone practising vipassanā both faculties will develop, and it may not be easy to identify one’ s strongest faculty.

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Thanks for the info, Matthias.

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You are welcome, friend :pray:

And here i shall quote the Visuddhimagga, which gives confirmation, and a method to know how one was Faith follower at the time of the path and liberated by Faith afterwards, or Dhamma-follower at the time of the Path and View-attainer afterward:

“yo hi aniccato manasikaronto adhimokkhabahulo saddhindriyaṃ paṭilabhati, so sotāpattimaggakkhaṇe saddhānusārī hoti. sesesu sattasu ṭhānesu saddhāvimutto.”

" When he (i. e, the yogi at vipassanā advanced level) focus the mind to the impermanence (of the sankhārā) with strong resolution he acquires the faith faculty, he is Faith follower at the time of the path of stream-entry. And in the 7 others instances
( fruit of stream entry and 3 other path fruitions) he becomes Liberated by faith. "

“yo pana anattato manasikaronto vedabahulo paññindriyaṃ paṭilabhati, so sotāpattimaggakkhaṇe dhammānusārī hoti. chasu ṭhānesu diṭṭhippatto aggaphale paññāvimuttoti.”

" When he focus the mind to the non -self (of the sankhārā) with strong knowledge he acquires the wisdom faculty, he is View-attainer at the time of the path of stream-entry. And in the 6 others instances also (fruit of stream entry and 2 other path fruitions with path of Arahantship) and at the highest fruit (Arahantship) he becomes Liberated by wisdom. "

From Vis,2, saṅkhārupekkhāñāṇakathā

Visuddhimagga itself quotes Patisambidhāmagga, which explains the same thing.
The case of the kāyasakkhi (Body-witness) and ubhatobhāgavimutto (Both-way liberated) is also discussed, according to his attainment of arūpa jhāna, focus on suffering of the formations before the path, and concentration faculty as stronger.

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This is key, and remember that Path lasts one mind moment. It is already an attainment and it is for sure to result in fruition in the next mind moment.

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This is also a great question among Dvipitakins, some think the path is not for one moment, because of some suttas…They think the Noble path may last hours, days weeks and son on.
One time we had discussion about it with a monk, a friend who is dvipatakin. He mentioned it.

Then i asked to him:

" What about the many cases in the suttas of individuals who attained stream entry suddenly by just hearing a discourse, sometimes extremely short?
Their path was only for a short moment, right? "

Then he was quite voiceless… But later he did the hypothesis of a path with not the same amount of time according to individuals… But he admitted that even with the suttas only, it is impossible to reject a short, mind-moment Noble path.

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From another post.
Magga Sacca.

“Upon hearing the first two lines, there arose in the wanderer Upatissa the dust-free, stainless vision of the Dhamma - the first glimpse of the Deathless, the path of Stream-entry - and to the ending of the last two lines he already listened as a stream-enterer”.

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The Pali is

yassa kho, bhikkhave, ime dhammā evaṃ paññāya mattaso nijjhānaṃ khamanti, ayaṃ vuccati – ‘dhammānusārī, okkanto sammattaniyāmaṃ,

Meaning of ‘khanti’ and ‘sammattaniyāma’ should be taken as in the following from (AN6.98)

so vata, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sabbasaṅkhāre aniccato samanupassanto anulomikāya khantiyā samannāgato bhavissatī’ti ṭhānametaṃ vijjati. ‘anulomikāya khantiyā samannāgato sammattaniyāmaṃ okkamissatī’ti ṭhānametaṃ vijjati. ‘sammattaniyāmaṃ okkamamāno sotāpattiphalaṃ vā
sakadāgāmiphalaṃ vā anāgāmiphalaṃ vā arahattaṃ vā sacchikarissatī’ti ṭhānametaṃ vijjatī"ti.

Which are respectively terms for ‘ñāṇa’ and ‘(catu)ariyamagga’.

So, something like ‘one who understands with a degree of discernment..’

Cakkhu sutta is talking about sotāpatti-magga-samaṅgi persons understanding (and surety).

For, one who sees the asankhata has understanding and surety that whatever sankhata is imperment.

Depending on which leads, saddha or Panna this division. Leads as in not arising before. Arising together, leading as captain a team.

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They can also be questioned from the saradasutta
(AN3.94)

saha dassanuppādā, bhikkhave, ariyasāvakassa tīṇi saṃyojanāni pahīyanti – sakkāyadiṭṭhi, vicikicchā, sīlabbataparāmāso

dassana-uppāda and removal of the three fetters are simultaneous.

And also of course from the Ratana sutta

sahāvassa dassanasampadāya ,
tayassu dhammā jahitā bhavanti,

sakkāyadiṭṭhī vicikicchitañca,
sīlabbataṃ vāpi yadatthi kiñci.

Also they can be questioned on the following puggalapaññatti from vajirūpama sutta (AN3.25)

katamo ca, bhikkhave, vijjūpamacitto puggalo? idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo ‘idaṃ dukkha’nti yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhasamudayo’ti yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhanirodho’ti yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti, ‘ayaṃ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti. seyyathāpi bhikkhave, cakkhumā puriso rattandhakāratimisāyaṃ vijjantarikāya rūpāni passeyya, evamevaṃ kho, bhikkhave, idhekacco puggalo ‘idaṃ dukkha’nti yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti…pe… ‘ayaṃ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti. ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, vijjūpamacitto puggalo.

And who has a mind like lightning?

It’s a person who truly understands: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’.

They’re like a person with keen eyes in the dark of the night, who sees by a flash of lightning.

In the same way, a person truly understands: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’. This is called a person with a mind like lightning.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.25/en/sujato

I just want to add here that, above is also a great example that demonstrates the ekābhisamaya of all Four Noble Truths.

From commentary to tālapuṭatthera gāthā

paññāmayanti maggapaññāmayaṃ sunisitaṃ asikhaggaṃ vīriyapaggahitena saddhāhatthena gahetvā samucchinditvā

maggapaññā is likened to a sharp sword and saddha is likened to the hand that grasps the sword.

Neither Saddhanusari nor Dhammabusari is lacking in hand or sword.

At the moment of the path both are cutting a limb and at moment of the fruit they have cut the limb(finished). Both have become streamenteres.

But I don’t know if it can be universally stated that all Dhammanusari weild a sharper sword than any Saddhanusari.