Yes… it is difficult to understand.
I get the feeling from that passage (which is the same as the commentary which references this mula translation page) that this is some sort honorary class of attainment made by a special determination. It appears that it might be very difficult to attain this special class of attainment whereas a simple Sotāpanna would be easier and most secure. However, I will ask a teacher on this… because … what do I know compared to them.
So far, I was explained this topic (brought up by myself too) in the way I explained back to you.
I can try to give more information to the teachers for a counter explanation.
It is still at best a magga status. Do not forget that phala is one mind moment away and therefore, impossible to die without attainment.
However, a discussion with a lankhara ex monk friend said it is generally known as a sotāpanna. It is splitting hairs at this point and he does not like the discussion. It also speaks of higher attainments with this distinction.
I can maybe try to ask the meditation teacher about this. However, it is still splitting hairs by a mind moment.
But I disagree with your ex-monk friend. I don’t think it is a hair splitting matter. This is quite essential to understand whether we misinterpretated the Suttanta or Atthakatha or not. As it touches on the important issue of enlightenment stages, if we misinterpretated it, that would be a big blockage to our understanding of Dhamma.
Since Magga is followed closely by Phala, that would mean that Dhammanusari and Saddhanusari weren’t Magga either. Because if they are, the Buddha would have said so in the Suttanta or Abhidhamma that they are to be considered as the same. And if Dhammanusari and Saddhanusari were Sotapatti Magga, the Buddha wouldn’t say “he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.”, which implied there is a gap of time for practice.
This is a late reply to message #60469 (Thu Jun 15, 2006) in which you discussed the phrase sotaapattiphalasacchakiriyaaya pa.tipanno (‘practising for the realization of the fruition of stream-attainer’) as it occurs in the Dakkhi.naavibhanga Sutta.
I don’t recall anyone posting any more detail, but as this very issue has just come up on E-sangha I thought I would post here my reply to a question from the Czech monk Ven. Gavesako (Jakub Bartovsky):
Ven.G:
“Can I ask, how does the commentary explain the 8 types of individuals mentioned in the Suttas, namely, “one practising for realizing the fruit of stream-entry”, “stream-enterer” and so on? (These are also described as recipients of offerings, which means they have to be at that particular stage for more than a single moment.)”
Dh:
I think phalasacchikiriyaaya pa.tipanna would be better translated as “one who has entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit…” (~Naa.namoli’s rendering), rather than “one practising for…”
In answer to your question, a good place to start is the commentary to the Dakkhi.naavibhanga Sutta (MN. 142); this is one of the suttas in which these persons are described as potential recipients of offerings.
It should be noted that the 8 types in this Sutta do not perfectly overlap with the “4 pairs of persons, 8 kinds of individuals” that constitute the Noble Sangha, for the 4 pairs here are not attainer of the path vs. attainer of the fruit, but rather, one who has entered upon the way to realisation of the fruit vs. one has realised the fruit. In the commentarial exposition, disciples in whom sotaapatti magga has arisen are just one sub-class of persons who have entered upon the way to realisation of sotaapatti phala.
The phrase “one who has entered upon the way to realisation of the fruit of stream-entry” (sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaaya pa.tipanna) is defined by the commentary according to the Sutta Method, and the definition given is a rather broad and inclusive one; in this context any worldling who has become an upaasaka by going to the three refuges is reckoned as “one who has entered upon the way to realisation of the fruit…” The commentator remarks that being an upaasaka with the three refuges is the bare minimum (he.t.thimako.ti) for a person to be counted as such; he then proceeds to list seven other types who are progressively more worthy to be recipients of offerings:
one established in the five precepts;
one established in the ten precepts;
one who goes forth as a saama.nera (so long as the offering is given to him on the day he goes forth);
a bhikkhu who is dutiful (vattasampanna);
a vipassaka (i.e. one who has developed insight up to but not including the knowledge of rise and fall);
an aaraddhavipassaka (one who has developed strong insight, i.e. knowledge of rise and fall onwards);
a maggasamangii (one possessed of the factors of the path).
The last is the highest type and is the only one who has actually attained sotaapatti magga.
The commentator then asks if it is possible to give a gift to a maggasamangii, considering that such a ‘person’ only exists for a single mind-moment. He answers that it is and gives the example of an aaraddhavipassaka bhikkhu who goes to a layman’s house for almsfood, the people there take his almsbowl from him and then emergence of the path ( magga-vu.t.thaana) occurs in him at the same moment that they are putting food in his bowl. There are a few other examples given, but they are essentially the same, differing only in the manner in which the food is given.
Later, to make the difference between the two lists of eight clearer to another poster, I summarized them:
List A: the Noble Sangha:
Attainer of the path of stream-entry. (ariyan).
Attainer of the fruit of stream-entry. (ariyan).
Attainer of the path of once-returning. (ariyan).
Attainer of the fruit of once-returning. (ariyan).
Attainer of the path of non-returning. (ariyan).
Attainer of the fruit of non-returning. (ariyan).
Attainer of the path of arahatta. (ariyan).
Attainer of the fruit of arahatta. (ariyan).
List B: Eight persons worthy of gifts:
One who has entered upon the way to the realization of the fruit of stream-entry. (might be an ariyan or puthujjana. If he’s an ariyan then he will be the same as person 1 in List A).
Stream-entrant. (ariyan = person 2 in List A).
One who has entered upon the way to the realization of the fruit of once-returning. (ariyan).
Once-returner. (ariyan).
One who has entered upon the way to the realization of the fruit of non-returning. (ariyan).
Non-returner. (ariyan).
One who has entered upon the way to the realization of the fruit of arahatta. (ariyan).
Arahant. (ariyan).
And in another later post I added the qualification that though the above is the case with the Dakkhi.naavibhanga Sutta, there are other suttas in which person 1 in List A refers only to the maggasamangii / attainer of the path of stream-entry, and so in these suttas the list consists entirely of ariyans.
You’ve made a mistake there as the pali doesn’t match the english. I believe you’ve mixed up the saddhavimutti(english) and saddhanussari(pali), basically quoting the wrong verse as translation.
You will need to quote me properly so I can understand what is wrong. Try highlighting the post and then it will ask you to quote. This will make a reply to this thread with the highlighted quote.
The latter english part describes ‘one liberated by faith’
“What kind of person is one liberated-by-faith? Here some person does not contact with the body and abide in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, but some of his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom, and his faith is planted, rooted, and established in the Tathāgata. This kind of person is called one liberated-by-faith.
It doesn’t describe a ‘faith-follower’.
“What kind of person is a faith-follower? Here some person does not contact with the body and abide in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, and his taints are not yet destroyed by his seeing with wisdom, yet he has sufficient faith in and love for the Tathāgata. Furthermore, he has these qualities: the faith faculty, the energy faculty, the mindfulness faculty, the concentration faculty, and the wisdom faculty. This kind of person is called a faith-follower.SuttaCentral
I don’ t know what you are trying to say.
I also may have quoted the commentary.
The main thing is that when taints / defilements are destroyed… that means enlightened and irreversible. Therefore it is not some type of Path that Suttantas /ebt’ers claim.
This is a group where the suttas and dhamma and abhidhamma and commentary are all considered a complete package. This is what ClassicalTheravada discussion is about. We try to avoid those who lurk in the dhammawheel and suttacentral. Those groups might be a better place for those discussions on a Path that last for longer than a mind moment and other suttanta ebt ideas.
If you have intention to be a Sotāpanna Anugāmi (Sotāpanna Anugāmi is a sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya paṭipanno which means person practicing for realizing the fruit of entering the Stream) which is equivalent to either Dhammānusārī(dhamma follower) or Saddhānusārī (faith follower), then you have to read and understand the following suttā:
An important way of classification of the Noble Persons (Ariyā) relevant to this topic on Dhammānusārī or Saddhānusārī is given in Tatiyasankhita Sutta (SN 48.14).
I understand now that there is a confusion because the translations are radically different
Here is Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation;
“What kind of person is a faith-follower? Here some person does not contact with the body and abide in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, and his taints are not yet destroyed by his seeing with wisdom, yet he has sufficient faith in and love for the Tathāgata.
Here is Thanissaro
"And what is the individual who is a conviction-follower? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, nor — having seen with discernment — are his fermentations ended. But he has a [sufficient] measure of conviction in & love for the Tathagata.
Whereas Sujato pins it
And what person is a follower by faith?
It’s a person who doesn’t have direct meditative experience of the peaceful liberations that are formless, transcending form. Nevertheless, having seen with wisdom, some of their defilements have come to an end.
It does not matter.
You seem to change the Pāḷi here and try to quote incorrectly
āsavā aparikkhīṇā
The original quote is this
ekacce āsavā parikkhīṇā honti ,
and this means that First Fruition has arisen. The rest is with the leading quality that preceded it.
It seems that a game of “comparison” is done here similar to what Ajahn Sujato often does.
List lots of different versions of the same thing and then somehow insist that there is some other meaning.
My original quote still stands.
ekacce āsavā parikkhīṇā honti , simply means ekacce āsavā parikkhīṇā honti ,
You don’t need to know Pāḷi to see that it means some āsavā are destroyed.
probably this is not a matter of choosing. In these cases we can assume the faith should be so strong in order some Dhamma teaching notions can appear integrated like happens when we think in the consequences after arising of panna.
I understand that before the stream entry, the faith is an ingredient always existing in different degrees in all the followers. And in some cases this can become the main catalyzer. At all, Faith is another way of knowledge able to surpass delusion precisely by denying it. Conviction and discernment are not so different at all.
I ignore the details about how panna and faith are related at those moments, it would be interesting to know from an Abhidhamma analysis.
“Who is a person Dhamma follower? Any person who
practising for the realisation of the fruit of stream entry, whose wisdom faculty is in excess, who is lead by wisdom and for whose wisdom is the precursor, develops the Noble path. Such person is called Dhamma follower. The person practicing for the fruit of stream entry is Dhamma follower, standing in the fruit he is View -attainer.”
“Who is a person Faith- follower? Any person who
practising for the realisation of the fruit of stream entry, whose faith faculty is in excess, who is lead by faith and for whom faith is the precursor, develops the Noble path. Such person is called Faith follower. The person practising for the fruit of stream entry is Faith follower, standing in the fruit he is liberated by faith.”
Ab. Pp. 7
The definition of Dhamma follower or Faith follower is given to individuals at the time of the Noble path.
They will be called Dhamma follower or Faith follower depending their dominant faculty at the time of the path.
Before that, for someone practising vipassanā both faculties will develop, and it may not be easy to identify one’ s strongest faculty.
And here i shall quote the Visuddhimagga, which gives confirmation, and a method to know how one was Faith follower at the time of the path and liberated by Faith afterwards, or Dhamma-follower at the time of the Path and View-attainer afterward:
“yo hi aniccato manasikaronto adhimokkhabahulo saddhindriyaṃ paṭilabhati, so sotāpattimaggakkhaṇe saddhānusārī hoti. sesesu sattasu ṭhānesu saddhāvimutto.”
" When he (i. e, the yogi at vipassanā advanced level) focus the mind to the impermanence (of the sankhārā) with strong resolution he acquires the faith faculty, he is Faith follower at the time of the path of stream-entry. And in the 7 others instances
( fruit of stream entry and 3 other path fruitions) he becomes Liberated by faith. "
" When he focus the mind to the non -self (of the sankhārā) with strong knowledge he acquires the wisdom faculty, he is View-attainer at the time of the path of stream-entry. And in the 6 others instances also (fruit of stream entry and 2 other path fruitions with path of Arahantship) and at the highest fruit (Arahantship) he becomes Liberated by wisdom. "
From Vis,2, saṅkhārupekkhāñāṇakathā
Visuddhimagga itself quotes Patisambidhāmagga, which explains the same thing.
The case of the kāyasakkhi (Body-witness) and ubhatobhāgavimutto (Both-way liberated) is also discussed, according to his attainment of arūpa jhāna, focus on suffering of the formations before the path, and concentration faculty as stronger.
This is key, and remember that Path lasts one mind moment. It is already an attainment and it is for sure to result in fruition in the next mind moment.
This is also a great question among Dvipitakins, some think the path is not for one moment, because of some suttas…They think the Noble path may last hours, days weeks and son on.
One time we had discussion about it with a monk, a friend who is dvipatakin. He mentioned it.
Then i asked to him:
" What about the many cases in the suttas of individuals who attained stream entry suddenly by just hearing a discourse, sometimes extremely short?
Their path was only for a short moment, right? "
Then he was quite voiceless… But later he did the hypothesis of a path with not the same amount of time according to individuals… But he admitted that even with the suttas only, it is impossible to reject a short, mind-moment Noble path.
“Upon hearing the first two lines, there arose in the wanderer Upatissa the dust-free, stainless vision of the Dhamma - the first glimpse of the Deathless, the path of Stream-entry - and to the ending of the last two lines he already listened as a stream-enterer”.
