Indeed, if machines are not part of human or animal realms, there’s not space for them in the 31 Realms of Existence.
I don’t find it hard to imagine the abstract process of mind being metaphorically “one ball hitting the next ball like domino process” and the last moment of mind conditioning the first moment of life.
What I do find puzzling is calling it a rebirth where there is no consciousness present at all and calling that a “being”. Sounds more like a very long coma rather than an existence.
Each (or at least some) of those planes might have A LOT of different kinds of species being there.
For example, under #2, Animals, scientists have classified 1.2 million of different living species and it is estimated that there might be (or might have been) anywhere from 5 million to over 1 trillion of living species on Earth.
In the suttas there are mention of many kinds that don’t seem to, initially, fit. Ex: Nagas and giant birds (supanna?) , and gandhabbas.
Well consciousness isn’t what makes the being. As consciousness is not self. That may very well be the case for asanna beings. If a human fell into a coma for 20 years? Do they cease being a being for 20 years? In the same way. Even if it is a coma experience that they experience. They are still beings for the same reason that guy in a coma for 20 years is still a being. I don’t really recommend shooting for the asanna realms as a place to be reborn. Just as I don’t recommend going into a coma. But as long as you can be reborn in that existence you are considered a being.
YES. Without it, one is a zombie or a vegetable rather then a being in full sense of the word (including anatta aspect).
If one doesn’t come out, then it is a “vegetable”. But then, that human had a conscious experience and if one can potentially “wake up” from coma then I’d consider it a being.
There is a mutual conditioning between Consciousness and Name-Form (Nāma-Rūpa, or Corporeity-Mentality). In certain conditions it’s possible to the form-aggregate to persist for a time without any manifestation of consciousness; when conditions change, new instances of consciousness may arise from this previously unconscious form.
This occurs with the Asañña Brahmas, ascetics (noble or not) who attain the non-perceptive attainment (which corresponds to the mental state of the Asañña Brahmas), and with non-returners and arahants who attain Nirodha Samāpatti. In these cases, the bodies of these beings (whether composed of the four elements or a fine-matter body), while still alive, remain entirely devoid of consciousness for the duration of these conditions. It is as if the capacity to manifest consciousness enters a latent state. This is not the same as a dead body, which has already lost the faculties necessary to manifest consciousness.
Potentially is a key word. The body unconscious but with potential to manifest consciousness is still a being.
True. but even if the being doesnt wake up. they dont move on to a new existence until they actually die. so what would you call a being that doesnt wake up from a coma?
In a coma there are still cittas arising and passing away - probably mostly bhavanga cittas but not limited to those.
The person is still human until the final cuti citta arises and then they will be immediately reborn in a new existence among the various realms
Asanna satta are born in rupa loka, not in kama loka. See Vibhanga.
They are still living beings because the potential to have mental activity is still present, though suppressed by their meditative attainment. The texts say that Asañña Brahmas decay from that state of existence in the moment that some perception arises in them. It seems to me that this perception automatically results in their death with rebirth in other realms.
The body of an Asañña Brahma is made of fine-matter. They live for 500 aeons (cycles of dissolution and rearising of universes), so their existences are not connected with anything of the gross-matter (four elements) universes. There’s no way to connect these beings with plants or other organisms.
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That is good point! Thanks!
What exactly is that fine matter? Is it “Dark matter? Fark energy?” What elements on the periodic table is it?
If the universe gets destroyed, where does fine matter exist?
Thanks!
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The material sciences are insufficiently advanced to answer this.
Renaldo
I’m basing my statements on the suttas and commentaries. I don’t have direct knowledge of these things.
Gross matter refers to the matter that composes the sensual realms. It includes the matter we’re familiar with (the “four great elements”, the elements of the periodic table), and possibly other more subtle forms of matter that are imperceptible under ordinary circumstances—such as those associated with devas, petas, and other “invisible” beings. Fine matter refers to the matter that composes the Form Sphere (Rūpa Loka). I don’t know the exact nature of these subtle forms of matter or whether if they correspond to any phenomenon already described by modern science. Perhaps they’re a kind of matter discernible only to advanced meditators.
Beings in the Form Sphere (Brāhmas) are described as having “mind-made bodies.” During the cyclical destructions of the material universe, the lower realms of the Form Sphere are also destroyed, while the higher ones are spared (DN27 Aggañña Sutta). So, the lower forms of fine-matter interacts with the gross matter in some way.
How can conditioning occur over an interval of time in which there was no intervening mental process? This is indeed a problematic part of the Theravada teaching.
Can I ask for a link to the text?
I just put a search into google “31 Planes of Existence” and that was one of the first in the list so you could probably do that and find it.
An analogy might help. Some seeds lie dormant for years until the right conditions allow them to germinate.
It is the same here.
Other conditions like kamma might give a results much longer in the future than that, perhaps aeons in the future.
Seeds and earth in the analogy are dhammas. Why does Abhidhamma not describe the nature of the seed and the seed repository?
The impulse of these kammas is preserved in the momentary flow of chitta. But if the continuity is interrupted, then the impulse will not be transmitted. Let me give you an example. The relay torch burns at the start, but lights the Olympic flame at the finish. In order for it to get to the finish, there must be those who will carry it and pass it from hand to hand. If in the middle of the chain the bearer of the relay torch is eliminated, then the fire will not be transmitted. So, in order for ancient karma to be realized, there must be a continuity of moments of the individual flow. The same story with the seed. In essence, the seed as a physical object ensures the continuity of states between the sowing tree and the sprouted shoot. What serves as the carrier of states in the event of the cessation of chitta?
The asanna satta beings have rupa conditioned by kamma, kammajarūpa so clearly citta is not needed for this.
It is an unusual state no doubt, but when we look at the Patthana and the details of the 24 paccaya it becomes clearer how this is possible.
If there is any problem, it’s trying to make sense via common sense notions.
Does a particular cittuppada have a spatial location?
When going on holiday , does consciousness also get on the aeroplane and travel to New York?
Also ‘time’ is not a Paramattha dhamma.